Trenton ReynoldsTotally, Duck Friends. The following was recorded on March 16th, 2017. This is episode number 38, 16-unit birdhouse. A Room in the Trees is hosted by Sabrina Harrison and me, Trent Reynolds. Show notes, including pictures, links, video, and more for every episode can be found at roominthetrees.com. If you like this podcast, please consider showing your support. You can become a subscribing patron at patreon.com forward slash room. Please rate us or write a review on iTunes. It helps us reach a wider audience and...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYou can share with a friend. The t-shirts totally rock. I've got to say, I got mine last week. Julia did a fantastic job of designing the jerrycans.
Trenton Reynoldsyes thank you Julia
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthank you Julia she's been enjoying the class so this week
Trenton Reynoldswe are talking to
Sabrina Ward HarrisonLori who you heard about last week episode
Trenton Reynoldsyes and It was a fantastic conversation. I felt like I could, you know, we could have talked for another two hours.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI was thrilled that he joined us and just I love laughing together and having your, the first friend you've introduced to of mine. So it's really fun to feel that connection happening. It's great.
Thank you, Cory.
Trenton ReynoldsOh, he built a barn and a duck run.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd he's 6'4".
Trenton ReynoldsAnd he's 6'4".
Sabrina Ward HarrisonHe's a great, great person, and I'm very grateful he's in my life.
CoreyAnd here you go. All right, are you ready for this? I can't tell. It's on Wikipedia, so this could be entirely... nonsense but flibbertigibbet is a middle English word referring to a flighty or whimsical person usually a lot it's bear with me usually a young woman in modern use it is used as a slang term especially in Yorkshire for a gossipy or overly talkative person okay so I completely misused the word I was like a
Sabrina Ward Harrisonleprechaun or something no
Trenton ReynoldsThere's a partial truth there, maybe. I would not dismiss it entirely.
CoreyWell, you can say that. I can't.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, nice to introduce you guys. Nice to introduce you. Nice to meet you.
Trenton ReynoldsYes, nice to meet you, Corey.
CoreyIt's good to hear your voice instead of trading emails. Thank you for having me on.
Trenton ReynoldsAbsolutely, I've been looking forward to it. How's your day going, Trent? I just ran in from dropping by the new studio space and so my brain's kind of transitioning from thoughts of shelving and lighting and stuff like that. It's been a good day. That's exciting. That's exciting. Yes, it is exciting.
I can't wait.
CoreyTrent, can I ask you a question? Please. You know, I've listened to some of your episodes and what I'm curious about is where I can see your paintings or the media or what it is that you do. Because Sabrina shared a few of them with me and I have to say they're quite impressive. And I just was curious if you had a website or a location or someplace where I could look
Trenton Reynoldsat them. I guess it's a cliche. I need to update my website. But it is Trenton Reynolds. My full name is Trenton. T-R-E-N-T-O-N-R-E-Y-N-O-L-D-S. Okay. Dot com. Cool. I will absolutely check that out. Thank you. Please do. So I've been editing the last week's episode all day today. So in listening to that, listening to your guys' What's the right word there? Your guys' is not a word. That's true. It's not y'all's. In listening to yourn. Yeah, I can't think of the word. But in listening to the way that you guys met. Oh my God. I had a bunch of A bunch of questions come up and I'm totally blanking on them now. So maybe as we start talking, it'll come back.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOkay. Oh, so Corey, you heard it. We played it.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, maybe that's where to start, I think. I think we have to give Corey his due opportunity to represent himself as he would.
Yeah.
CoreyWell, it's remarkable. I did hear it one time and I can say that I've never heard myself talked about quite like that, like with another friend. It almost kind of felt like eavesdropping, but I had a very large smile on my face throughout most of it. And it's interesting that we shared the same space and the same moment that actually this moment lasted all three hours, three and a half hours, and neither one of us actually knew that it that long had elapsed, and one of the things that Sabrina talked about was when she walked into where we were, a place called Alchemy, somewhere that I had never been, and she had not, never been either. So we were both in a new place and didn't know what to expect. And I just, I was there a little bit early and trying to try, I was really trying to figure out where I could strategically sit to look cool. Do you know what I mean? And that, that, that was not working at all. And so I just decided I'm going to stand here and I tried to get a, I tried to get a waitress to help me. And that was actually a recurring theme throughout the evening is sort of, Yeah, maybe not, you know, I don't know.
Trenton ReynoldsCould you describe the posture that you were trying to achieve in looking cool? Is weight more on one leg than the other? Is a hand in pocket? Are you leaning against a wall?
No.
CoreyYeah, you know, no, really what it was is I was standing in the middle of this room, and that's where I found myself. And I was literally, and I'm standing there in my North Face jacket with my, you know, shirt untucked, and I'm questioning every fashion decision that I've made in this, as well as the rationality of online dating in general, which, you know, is... a whole other story, but I turn around and the bell rings, I believe, over the door, and in walks this person that I've talked to once for less than 10 minutes on the phone, and, um, I pretty much did what I'm doing now, which is I, everything sort of stopped, and, um, And then the fear starts. And then you kind of just step forward and you remember that you need to breathe in and out, that's how this works. And I walked up to her and as I got closer to Sabrina, I saw a look on her face that I only could really attribute to great confusion, almost like she had watched. someone crash into a wall and I wasn't sure I really wasn't sure if she had just seen something outside or if if it was me and every sort of self-doubt bad in her voice suddenly was like this is your moment Corey here's a significant learning opportunity and you really need to get in the gym membership and perhaps consider cosmetic surgery. And so, you know, this all happens in the blink of an eye. But then, you know, I said hi. She said, I'm Sabrina, I'm Corey. And I said, are you okay? And she's... She's looking at me and she is having, she's having trouble breathing too. And I'm like, is this something about this room? And then she says to me in this small voice, you're so normal.
And...
CoreyAnd again, you know, I'm kind of like, this is not exactly what I expected to have happen. And so, you know, we're like, we're looking at each other, and I realize that maybe she should get out of the doorway, and I should stop standing in the middle of the doorway. And I ask her, where would you like to sit? And she's again... it's taking a little bit of time to process the answer to that question. And, and would you like to sit at the bar? And she's like, I don't care. And I was like, no, we don't want to sit at the bar. And I was like, would you like to sit at a table? And she said, sure. And, but her answer was more of like one of aggravation. And I was like, Oh wow. What did I get myself into yet again? And, and anyway, we felt we, we threaded our way back to the back of, uh, to a corner.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonBecause I wanted to, I did want, I wanted to sit down so my side, and maybe I showed that in the previous story, but I was just looking at him going, I wanted to sit, I just wasn't, no, I need to like assert, I just, yes, I want to go back to that cozy booth in the back and sit beside you.
CoreyAnd I didn't know any of this. I wasn't, I really wasn't, I really wasn't quite sure what was happening and that kind of lasted a little while, but, um, But yeah, so we sat down and we started talking and...
Trenton Reynolds- How did the conversation lead into stories of barn building? 'Cause I don't think you could have known that that was a important...
- Detail. - Yeah.
Corey- Dude, add it to the great cosmic list. I just, it's sort of this remarkable set of, really I run out of, you know what I'm saying, Sabrina. It's sort of, how did we get to that place? I think you asked, did you ask me or I told you about when I was in the Pacific Northwest and some of the things that I've done and built
Sabrina Ward Harrisonand did or how did we get to that place? - I don't know, something about what we loved or, I don't even know, something, something, but it was exciting. - Well, you make sure-- - Because it wasn't connected to your job or anything, it was completely separate. Yeah, no, we got there. Yeah
CoreyWell, you would you would talk I think you were talking about how you really wanted to have a big space for a studio And that yeah, you would talked about what you had in San Francisco and you know, I hadn't seen pictures or anything we'd known each other for probably 30 minutes and then I I'm an extrovert, which I have actually been learning a great deal about the differences between introverts and extroverts. It's been quite enlightening. But no, I've built barns, I've built chicken coops, duck runs, I've run I don't know how many acres of fencing by myself. Don't ask me how, I just like watch a video, read a book and do it, you know?
Trenton Reynolds- Well, why? - Why? Well, you know-- - I mean, you're talking about this like it's, you know, something that-- everybody would expect to do during a lifetime, but I've never thought or considered even
Coreybuilding a duck run, for example. Dude, I will totally do that with you. I mean, I love doing that. I would love to. That's the thing. No, serious, man. I wouldn't even think about that,
Trenton Reynoldsbut I would love to. Of course, I heard that, and I'm like, Yes! Yes, I want to build a duck ride.
CoreyAre you kidding me? To me that's the most brilliant thing in the world. And I think maybe it has to do with what I do for a living. Which is I spend 40 hours a week making something that doesn't really exist. It kind of exists, but it never really ends. It's always kind of in a perpetual state of undone-ness. For me, getting out of that sense of, you know, it's word documents and visio process flows and testing scenarios and all of these things that go into what I do, to be able to put on a pair of Carhartts and a pair of muck boots and stomp around in the mud, listening to the Grateful Dead with a hammer in my hand in like a pocket full of nails and spend a couple hours nailing things together and then to step back and go, oh, that's pretty cool. I mean, to me, it's just incredibly gratifying, especially when it serves a purpose. And like with you, you want a deck or you want shelving. It's like, it's brilliant. It's magnificent. And it's this sense of accomplishment that, it's a tangible physical thing that exists and I don't know maybe you guys get that from what you do with your art or your painting or your you know your drawing in your photography but for me it's it's this it's the sense of I am doing what I think as a human being that the human condition is to create and in an artistic form, it may be in a culinary form, it may be in the form of caregiving and raising children or being part of a tribe or whatever it is, but to create a structure and something that has utility and stands through countless, say, winters in the Pacific Northwest or here in Wisconsin, I don't know why, but it's just, I take a great deal of pride in those types of things.
Mm-hmm.
Trenton ReynoldsSo that's something that comes up, the word physicality. And Sabrina, that word I found interesting because it's not one that I had really thought of in relation to art before. But it's something that Sabrina would bring up regularly. And so I've just had more opportunity to consider it. I think there is something about our physical existence, us having bodies and existing in three-dimensional space, that when we create other physical objects, it's kind of an affirmation of our existence. There's something more concrete, I think, to that thing. The substance is just as important, perhaps, as the content or what it means. means. Well, and sort
Coreyof the process. I mean, you know, I'm sure when you all what media you decide to do it in, what format, the place, the ambience, you know, what drives you creatively. And it's like, for me, I want to build a birdhouse. I want to make some ridiculously elaborate thing, you know, which barely has utility, but looks really cool. And I've been thinking about this, because one thing in being with Sabrina is I watch her aesthetic sense and how she she creates things and I'm only just scratching the surface in this but I'm thinking I can't wait to make a birdhouse and then have her turn it into a piece of artwork because then you have this this wonderful synergy of something that has utility and yet will endure but then becomes this incredibly expressive artistic element as well, you know, and
Trenton ReynoldsWell, see, there is something that's interesting to me in that where you say something that barely has utility. And in the profile that Sabrina read, I hate to hold you. Going back to that. I was waiting for this. Well, it's on my mind because I've been listening to it today. And it's not fair to bring this up when it's not on your mind. But you talk about things that you don't like. And I'm forgetting the words that you use, but inefficiency was...
CoreyIt was actually needless complexity.
Trenton ReynoldsNeedless complexity. Yeah, I love that. There it is. So, and I'm not trying to say that they're the same thing, but how would you... Something's lack of utility is... So... And needless complexity. I guess that's... how would you differentiate between the two?
CoreySo, so I, I one time made a birdhouse that was literally four, four feet tall because I had scraps of lumber and it was like a 16 birdhouse condominium. You know what I mean? And, and, and I'm sitting there and I'm going, I'm, I, why am I doing this? And it's like, well, because it's there. And it's like, because I've never built a four foot 16, 16 unit birdhouse before. And then I'm like, and I like it. And I do this thing where it's like, I go in, you know, in the back of the shelves where I have all this paint, which is maybe as old as I am and God knows, you know, what it actually looks like, but it's like, I'm just gonna start doing this and I'm gonna start putting it together and I'm gonna see where this thing goes. And, you know, I do it and I make it and it has absolutely no purpose. Like maybe two birds, because of how the nature of birds might nest and never talk to each other. You know, it would be a very tense situation, especially when there's babies. But, you know, I'll look out there and I'll say like, you know, hey, have you checked out my four-foot ridiculous birdhouse? There's, you know, and... I just, you know, it's just like, I don't know, I really like taking scraps, like scraps of wood, and trying to figure out what can I make with this? Because this is a throwaway, this is something that, you know, it sits in a bucket, and what am I gonna do with this? Prop up a chair leg or something? And how can I fit this into something so that it's almost like, I don't even know what I wanna do with it. I want these materials and these loose items that I have rattling around to come in to make something. And it may be, utterly ridiculous but it's like you know maybe some woodland creature will think it's cool and be like cory you're like the coolest dude ever thank you for building me this taj mahal or whatever it is you know what i mean
Trenton Reynoldsit's just sick I'm picturing this really flamboyant, ambitious bird that just wants more rooms. You know, it's like... I just need a bigger space. That's right.
CoreyYeah, it's sort of like the Zsa Zsa Gabor of the bird world moving into... my wood scrap birdhouse. But yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't mean to get all like left-feely about it, but it's kind of like, you know, you have a shop and you end up with all these pieces of, in odd shapes and sizes and it's like, maybe it goes back to being a kid and playing with Legos or playing, my grandfather made me a set of blocks when I was a boy. and sanded them all by hand and gave them to me one time. And I treasured those things. And they were pieces of baseboard or, you know, two by four, all these different odds and ends of just things that he had rattling around in his garage. And, you know, this guy, he's out there and he literally, he was sanded everything by hand and stained it and varnished it. And he gave it to like a seven-year-old boy and, you know, There's something incredibly touching about that, that I mean, I get that. And maybe I'm indirectly channeling that with how I like to take scraps. I mean, I'm the type of guy where, one of the things about living in Madison, especially about when the college season turns over is that you literally don't need to go shopping for furniture you just roll up yeah and I mean I have an oak bookcase that I helped someone move out of their stairs because I was driving by hit the brakes left my car in the middle of the road with the flashers on ran out and said are you throwing that away and they're like yeah and I said I will absolutely take this and brought it home and And now it's in my dining room and it looks great. And but, you know, you can drive around and find all of these things. I just found materials and you can do like incredible things. Now, I live in an apartment now as opposed to a house with acres. And so that's rather prohibitive as to the amount of crap that I can, you know, store reasonably without attracting vermin or creating a fire hazard. And so that's curtailed one of my hobbies. But, yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsHow on earth did you guys find each other? This is, like, uncanny how... How in line, just the way your minds work. I know. That is just unreal, unreal.
CoreyWell it's interesting that you say that because I haven't really met any of Sabrina's friends yet except for you, so this is sort of an interesting feedback. You're the first friend, friend.
Trenton Reynoldswell i don't i don't know if i'm very representative of a well you know me pretty
Sabrina Ward Harrisonwell that's true we've had a lot of conversations so yeah we've we've discussed thoroughly sabrina's finds on the street on the podcast well it's not just it's not but but there's something more than
Trenton Reynoldsthe practicality of finding something used it's like there's something deeply meaningful about that process you know there's a joy in that that i don't think it transcends you know just being glad you found something that you could use yeah you know that you see its potential what it can become that's that exactly and that's what i'm saying that's what i'm hearing in your you know talking about scraps and odds and ends that you find in the workshop and being able to see some kind of potential in it or a desire to redeem something that's a cast off you know that man, this is just like every conversation that we have on this podcast.
CoreyI think it was the podcast where you were speaking with your friend who had repurposed the shovel into a jewelry in your situation. Like, do you, do you find yourself recycling things of the art or like you had talked about all this mixed media and things like that?
Yeah.
Trenton ReynoldsI definitely not quite in the way that that I think you to do but but something in the way that you're talking about your process a resonates I'm just not exactly quite sure how I think I do a maybe similarly in repurposing on imagery imagery that feels like cast offer superfluous or fem roll or you know like and trying to rarify it or make it or imbue it with some kind of importance or meaning or validate its existence or you know i don't know i'm i've this is like i'm i don't know i'm gonna have to think a little bit more about that but But no, I don't, for instance, find objects and then want to bring them into some kind of installation or sculpture, for example.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYou'd like to go to the container store and buy little things like that.
Trenton ReynoldsI do. I do. And I was going to mention that, but it felt like such a not at all like what you guys do. But I do like a shelf that I have. and then I move to a different space, like imagining all the options of shelving that I have in my arsenal, and how they might fit and work for a different purpose, or maybe be reorganized in a way that's suited to the new space. I do like that. It's not quite the same thing.
Corey- I'm just gonna validate your like in need of the container store, I will say that. Has someone who is tired of trying to find a two and a half inch deck screw mixed in with 10,000 other sizes of every other type screw, I am a convert to the need to have those things in their own little place, I'm just gonna say that. - Yep, yep.
Sabrina Ward Harrisondo you want to read one of the do you want to read one of the the quotes cory
Coreyoh yeah we haven't even talked about
Trenton Reynoldsthat well so you i got an email saying that both of you had saved these quotes right
Sabrina Ward Harrisonindependently yeah so the beautiful he sent me the uh whitman quote a couple days after we met and And not knowing that, I don't know, so you know my dad did, his first film was about Walt Whitman and it was about Whitman coming and being this huge influence in this small town in London, Ontario. And so it was his huge passion project he did in his 40s. and he in the in the film Whitman recites this exact quote and it's been something that's sort of an anthem in our family and my dad and the influence and Corey sends us exactly exact lines to me saying and I thought maybe okay I'm giving you know okay maybe just by chance he saw it online today he just thought this sounds good I'll send it to her and I'm like wow okay but he's so I said he said yeah this has been a real Whitman's been a real influence on me growing up and I you know him not knowing anything about that how much Whitman is a part of my life and the beginning of spelling open starts with that Whitman a Whitman quote
Trenton ReynoldsSo why don't you read the quote? Sure.
CoreyThis is what you shall do. Love the earth and the sun and the animals. Despise riches. Give alms to everyone that asks. Stand up for the stupid and the crazy. Devote your income and labor to others. Hate... Tyrants, argue not concerning God. Have patience and indulgence toward the people. Take your hat off to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men. Go freely with powerful, uneducated persons and with the young and the mothers of families. Read these leaves in the open air every season. of every year of your life. Re-examine all of you have been told at school or church or in any book. Dismiss whatever insults your own soul. In your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the greatest fluency, not only in its words, but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body.
Walter Whitman.
CoreyI wrote that in a journal when I was 17 or 18. And I remember, for me, it was one of these things where every time... I had to save up money because I wanted to buy a good book, a nice book, to write down all of my complicated teenage boy... things. And this, I remember finding this Whitman quote and, and, um, on the opposite side of it was actually the, the Jack London quote that I had, um, sent you as well. And I thought that there was an interesting counterpoint to these two things because I don't think they're two entirely different sentiments. You know, perhaps one is, um, maybe more from the extrovert perspective, and maybe one is more from an introvert perspective. But I think the sentiment, to me, I read it as being this Whitman quote, as well as the Jack Lennon quote, to be very highly aligned.
Trenton Reynolds- Can you-- - Do you wanna read that one? - Yeah.
CoreyAre you sure one of you guys don't want to read it?
Trenton ReynoldsYeah. Your voice is great. Do you want to read it, Sabrina? Sure. No, I don't.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, you read it.
I would rather be.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSorry. Oh, did you rather be asked?
CoreyWhat are you? No, I just don't want to monopolize your podcast.
That's all. Not at all. All right. Okay. All right.
Corey"I would rather be ashes than dust. I would rather that my spark should burn out in a brilliant blaze than it should be stifled by dry rot. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy impermanent planet. The proper function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days trying to prolong them. I shall use my time."
This is Jack London.
CoreyAnd that's a guy who, he lived an incredibly amazing life and he was actually Hemingway's chief inspiration for becoming a writer. And regrettably, Jack lived a very hard living lifestyle and lived well beyond perhaps what was he should have and with his drinking and how he lived and died when he was 40 years old. But the sentiment behind this, if you take away perhaps the substance abuse, is, again, I just see this incredible alignment with what Whitman says and with this, because they're essentially the same sentiment, is that if you have a sense of being part of a community and you know what good is, and good with a big G, like my old Eastern religions and philosophy professor used to say, then the two sentiments are the same. You would live that passionate life and take joy in the things that Whitman says and delight in the conflict that you create in yourself by doing them. You know? - Or maybe that's just me.
Trenton Reynolds- Yeah, no, that's well said. Sabrina, how would you describe what the poem means to you?
Sabrina Ward Harrison- Well, my dad read me a lot. You can imagine how much these sort of things, I re-listened to the episodes with my dad the other day. And this, like I was definitely raised, you know, being read Jack London when I was young and by my dad. I didn't know that. I feel like it's just, yeah, yeah. It just keeps coming. Keeps coming. Of course it does. Yeah, of course. Of course it does. I'm sorry.
Trenton ReynoldsI didn't mean to interrupt you.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonSo, it just feels like it was what I was raised to believe in, you know? It's exactly, it's like, it's the anthem of childhood and becoming myself and what I was raised to do in the world and the way I was raised to live. And I feel like those were the directions I was given by my family. and I really took those to heart and I think I have lived my life according to them for the most part. So I resonate with them and when I hear them I feel just a deep resonance with the things I'm committed to about living my life.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, let me, I'd like to share something that I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to give voice to it as well as I'd like to, but there, there was special meaning to me in this, this Jack Linden quote when I read, um the proper function of man is to live, not to exist. - Yes. - I come from a family where my dad's a doctor, I have two brothers that are doctors. And so that's kind of a comparison that I'm constantly making, you know, the nobility of the medical professions, you know, of saving life is kind of irrefutable, right? You cannot deny the importance of that profession or the importance of that profession to society. I found myself talking to one of my brothers who was a doctor one time, and I remember saying something like, so that's what all you do all day is save people's lives. And I said that and we let it sit. He kind of had a dumbfounded look on his face, like yes, of course, idiot. And it sounded like such a stupid thing to say in the moment, like as if that's not enough to spend your days saving people's lives. But I think what I was, the sentiment or the thing that I was trying to express is that what I value in the path that I've chosen is that what I bring to people or what I get to participate in every day is not the maintenance of life, but the living of it. Do you understand what I mean by that? And through your teaching? Yeah, through, well, just being, participating in art making and creation, right? Yeah. So when I see, I get to be there when somebody discovers something new or they see a new possibility or potential or they make some kind of connection with a new technique or medium that they feel, communicate something about themselves that they weren't able to express before. Anyway, so I don't, and I'm not saying that that's any more valuable or better than saving lives, but I think it's a difference in, I don't know. I see what you're saying. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, actually.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonIt's like the saying, yeah, it's like you're not, yeah, saving, you're helping a life actually live.
Trenton Reynoldsis important. But I guess this is what, this is the difference to me is like art making is about living. It's about creating. It's a, and, and, and being a doctor is about maintaining life or preserving life. And they're, they're both important, but anyway, I'm sorry, go ahead.
CoreyNo, no, no. I interrupted you and I'm an extrovert and I'm going to apologize for that. So, um,
Trenton ReynoldsNo, no, I'm just talking I get in these circles where I just No, you
CoreyYou're What you said really struck something in me And it's something I I've worked in healthcare for the last decade And I am in hospitals In clinics And I'm in sensitive places within those installations. And I remember this very, very clearly. I was in Seattle, and of course it was raining because it's winter, and I was at one of the medical centers. And I sat down in the waiting room area, the general waiting room area that was right near where Oncology is. I observed a couple that were probably in their 50s or 60s, and there was a man reading a book, and reading it very softly, and I don't know what it was, but he was-- it could have been something like Nicholas Sparks. I mean, it didn't really matter what the book was. But his wife was very obviously undergoing chemotherapy, and she was weeping, and nauseous and rocking back and forth. And he had his arm around her and was reading to her and soothing her with art, with words, with something that someone created. And all around us, there's clinicians, there's nurses, there's doctors, and their job is to focus on treating you know, an acute situation, you know, it's a patient encounter is over, you move on. And I was just struck by this. It stuck with me because, yes, it's true. There are doctors and there are nurses and there are surgeons and there are, there are spinal specialists and, and all these people and they perform a function and it is, it is a wonderful necessary function here in the church. 21st century. However, the thing that makes us human and the thing that we go back to and the thing that keeps us want to being alive is that which we find beautiful or speaks to us. And it could be a painting, it could be listening to John Coltrane, It could be this book, but in that moment when things are the darkest, and this couple that obviously had been together for forever, that this man would keep reading with his arm around his wife who is being sick from yet another round of chemotherapy, the place that they go is to that which they love and which they feel something for. and it's art, you know, and it might be the written word. Now, you know, I don't mean to be modeling or to be precious in saying that, but I say that in the sense that, you know, whether it be jazz or whether it be a book or whether it be the paintings that I've bought, or whatever it is. Those are the things that bring us joy when we sit down when life has, you know, decided that it's going to completely mess with us yet again. And those are the things that we turn to to remind us of why it's good to be alive in our humanity. Exactly, right. You know, I mean, and I think, you know, from my non-artistically focused life, I mean, that is how I view those things, you know? And within healthcare, it's, I don't know, it's the art that soothes, it's the music that soothes. That's what helps you heal. The doctors help you get better, but you heal yourself with art and with creativity and with that which brings you joy and happiness.
Mm-hmm.
Trenton ReynoldsSee, I'm interested in, you said something right there and have an assumption there that I disagree with, and that is that you don't, you were saying that you don't have an art-focused You know, I went to art school and obviously when you go to specialize in something, there's a lot of incentive to really define what it is that you are or what you're becoming, right? To make clear distinctions because it makes you feel more important, right? It separates you apart, but I think what that does is essentially it makes you feel like you didn't get training in it, so that means that you're not part of whatever that is. But I listen to you talk, and the way that you think about materials and making and the joy and stomping around the mud and what have you, and I think that that more or less encapsulates what I feel art is. you know art is not to me what's what brings me joy about art is is not you know a traditional oil painting i mean there is something in that but it's something much more general and human than that anyway so i i'm interested in this these distinctions that we make and i think there's purpose there's value in them but i also think that uh as we talked about in the introvert and extrovert episode that that they can keep keep us from recognizing potential that we have and Anyway, I think you got a maker in you, is what I'm saying. Yep, definitely. I don't think you're that much, that far off from then Sabrina or myself. Well, I take that as high praise. Thank you. Sabrina, we've been talking a lot. What you got going on?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, I love... I think... What I thought... I... The introvert-extrovert thing has been really something we've been doing a deep dive into this week. I've got, like, 70... What I like is... You know how, Corey? You know how I, like, get really into something, like, really, like, you know... goodie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, Corey, I really appreciate also just, like, he's all in. He's like, alright, introvert, extrovert. And so I'm getting, like, so many emails, like, 17 ways to love an introvert, how to understand, and it's so interesting, but there's such a great feeling of, like, let's learn about this. And I don't think I've ever but one thing I've been really energized by, and I think maybe you can relate as an introvert, is previously in other relationships, it's just not something you start talking about immediately. And for me, having really lived my life in the past years, really on my own terms, becoming more myself and knowing myself and understanding... what I want, what I value, and so on, that just speaking about, like, I think as an introvert, you sort of immediately try to kind of keep up with an extrovert. And so there's something that has been really great about being curious and exploring that.
CoreyIn all fairness, it's been both of us sending you sharing with me introverts, and then I'm taking them in and then I'm asking follow-up questions because, you know, I think there's spectrum to everyone, you know, and... But I try and, you know, in the time we've been together, what I'm recognizing is the impact I have on my surroundings, and particularly when we're together, and recognizing that if I slow down, I actually, it actually feels fine. Do you know what I mean? And not, I spend my days in sensory overload. Like I explained this to Sabrina, I've worked in like four dimensions because I, you know, I don't just think about what is now I have to think about like four forking roads in front of me and then what, who that's going to impact. And then, you know, it's, which is fine when you're an extrovert because it's like, woohoo, you know, like, let's go faster, you know. But then when it's done, and it's something that I've had to learn how to do just long before I met Sabrina, was how do you stop doing that? Because you can't live your whole life like that. I mean, you can, but then bad things happen. but it's these things that I've practiced within myself just for me from self-care from a self-care standpoint as far as like you know just breathe just be just listen to Coleman Hawkins you know have a cheeseburger just you know slow down you know admire the sunset and and and what I find is interesting with Sabrina is watching how when we interact based on the articles that she sent me how if I try something new that it sort of feels, it feels different, but it feels good too, because it's like, I don't know, it's like there's another part of me which I get to try and use within this new scenario that is actually much more calm in the moment and calm. and in the moment feels more meaningful so I don't know maybe that's obvious to an introvert but to someone who is you know extroverted and you know who It's a little bit of a revelation. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of woo-hoo, but you know.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd how to support. We should read those things that you said about the 10 ways to support an extrovert, 10 ways to support an introvert. Because there were things I didn't realize. I'll read some of those. Did you get that, Trent, and I forwarded it to you? I did. I just have it open to you.
Okay.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonHow to care for introverts. One, respect their need for privacy. Two, never embarrass them in public. I think this also relates to raising children that are extrovert and introvert more, too. Never embarrass them in public. Let them observe first in new situations. I really like that. Give them time to think. Don't demand instant answers. Don't interrupt them. Give them advance notice of unexpected changes in their lives. Seriously. Give them 15-minute warnings to finish whatever they're doing. Totally. Totally.
It works.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, it does. Reprimand them privately. Teach them new skills privately. Enable them to find one best friend who has similar interests and abilities. Don't push them to make lots of friends. Respect their introversion. Don't try to remake them into extroverts.
Trenton ReynoldsThat's it. Wonderful list.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd then the other one is how to care for extroverts. Respect their independence. Compliment them in the company of others. I like that. Accept and encourage their enthusiasm. Allow them to explore and talk things out. Thoughtfully surprise them. Understand when they are busy. Let them dive right in. Totally. Totally. Totally. Offer them options. Make physical and verbal gestures of affection. Let them shine.
CoreyUm, yes. Absolutely.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWhat ones resonate with you, Corey, the most?
CoreyWell, I think it was one night when we were just frantically sending each other our... Yeah. "Please don't interpret me the wrong way" type emails, you know, as to what an extrovert and an introvert were, because, you know, it's sort of like... Yeah, so, I mean... You know, honestly, it's the, um, allow them to, well, yeah, this is going to come as a shock to you, uh, allow them to explore and talk things out, um, for, in, in my situation, I guess, as who I am, I, uh, I sometimes have to talk to get to where I need to go. And I recognize that that can have an impact though, as far as sensory overload upon someone who's an introvert. So I've been trying to be more careful with that and to slow my thoughts down because, you know, it's not like I'm manic, that's not it at all. It's just that, you know, you know, I've got like 10,000 things going on in my head, and it's like I need to get it down to like two. And maybe I can, you know, and maybe not needing 45 minutes to do that is a better way, you know, maybe if we can get it down to like a minute or two. But that burden is sort of on me because I'm trying to communicate something. But I'm probably doing it right now. But I let them dive right in. Totally. Especially with problem solving. and give us a project and understand we might be a little obsessive about it until it's done. And then remarkably, we're going to want another project and we're going to probably do the same thing. And whether it be go make chocolate chip cookies, go find new furniture, you know, it's just sort of like it's a way for us to, I don't know, the way I look at it is like you essentially are giving a dog like a rawhide. and we're just going to sit there and gnaw on that thing and we're going to be perfectly content to look up at you and pant and go, oh, wow, you're the best, and then go back to, you know, like I was. And then we can come to you and we're like, we'll just sit next to you. You know what I mean? And yeah, and then obviously number nine, make physical and verbal gestures of affection. I think as an extrovert, because of... It's interesting, there's a whole element of this that we missed where there was another article talking about how the nervous systems between introverts and extroverts were very different and that we don't mean to be completely an overdrive and overwhelming you, this is just kind of how we are. It was very interesting to read though about... like with an introvert, and that to understand that there's someone who has a very different biological sort of, you know, imperative and wavelength. And it's like, once I processed that, that's when I began to really sort of...
Thank you.
Coreyget it. And it's just you know, I don't think we can apply a value judgment and say better or worse or whatever it is. That's not it at all. I mean, it's sort of like saying you have a garden full of vegetables and one is better than the other. And it's like, no, they're all what they are meant to be. A tomato is a tomato and a radish is a radish. And they grow differently, but they're all vegetables. I don't know.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI just pulled up that part about the nervous system thing. I'll just read it now. for people listening. Realize that introversion is not simply a personality trait. It's a nervous system setting. Here's how I like to explain it. Your nervous system is like a net that catches stimulation in your environment. Things like noise, light, words, and facial expressions. if you're an extrovert you've got extra large holes in your net you can handle a lot of stimulation before you get overwhelmed if you're in the middle of extrovert introvert you got an average size holes if you're an introvert with highly sensitive nervous system you catch everything so you easily and quickly over get overstimulated This is not about liking people or not. It's about biology and how your system processes your environment. Please never make an intro feel like she's antisocial. She loves people just as much as you do. She just does it differently. Brain scans can actually show us this now. And then they had, Corey, didn't they have one about that? Explain that for the extrovert side too. yeah
Trenton Reynoldsthat's a really interesting metaphor the net yeah that makes a lot of sense to me it's been interesting to me as a parent I brought this up in the past but I have one daughter that's very much an extrovert and then my second daughter, my oldest daughter is an extrovert, my second daughter is an introvert. And because my oldest daughter was obviously my first kid, I developed, you know, a way of relating to her that even though I'm an introvert, I was relating to her as an extrovert, you know, and And that's kind of how she trained me to be a dad. And then my second daughter came along. And so I, you know, this is how I was taught to be a dad is to be this certain way. And my second daughter would have very different reactions to that kind of parenting. So, for example, like with my oldest daughter, I can go in and I just plaster her with a kiss on her cheek and she loves it. And I'll purposefully make it obnoxious, 'cause she likes the over the top, she likes being smothered, she likes, you know. But my younger daughter just immediately will kind of recoil and pull away and say, stop it. She doesn't like it. And what I've found is that with my second daughter, if I come in and just kiss her just very lightly on the cheek and then step away, that given in about 15 or 20 seconds, she'll walk over to me and grab my leg and hug me. Wow. And it's like, you know, whereas my oldest daughter, I'll give her this big kiss on the cheek, and then she'll jump on top of my stomach, you know, when I lay down on the couch. Because she needs that physical closeness, you know. Anyway, I just, so even though I'm an introvert, it's been, I've been learning a lot about what it, what being an introvert looks like from the, you know, from the outside as I kind of get, learn my second daughter, you know.
CoreyI love that story. I, that is something for me. I mean, I don't have kids and you know, I, I, I, I never thought about it in those terms, you know, that the different personalities of your children and the different needs that they would have. It's sort of a, I don't know, that's absolutely fascinating and beautiful.
Trenton ReynoldsIt is. It's wonderful. It's great being a parent.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI've never seen you be a parent in action, Trent, all these years.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, it's exciting, let me tell you that. I am. No, I was just joking. It's pretty dull, I'm sure.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, no, no. No, no, no.
Trenton ReynoldsWhen you say it like that, a parent in action, I'm just thinking like...
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell, I was thinking because Corey and I have talked a lot about this, like the importance of love in action. And so I was thinking about the act for you, an action of loving your children is more what I was thinking about. It is in action.
Trenton Reynolds- Well, and for introverts, I think there's also love in inaction, right? - Yeah. - Creating space and distance, you know? - Tell me more about that. - I think it's, let's see, I wanna refer to the list. I refer to How to Care for Introverts, entry 1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 9, 11, those are all about, I think, inaction. Like, what does that look like literally in the moment? What that looks like is you standing still, and you're like, and not acting.
Corey- I like that, I really do. I mean, again, you're giving me something else to think about, like a frame of reference for this.
Trenton Reynolds- So what would that look like for you, Trenton? Well, I think the example I just gave is, you know, with my younger daughter is like, the way I love her is just by giving her space, you know, by not kissing her or, you know, hugging her, you know, like being close to her. The way I love her is I give her space, let her process until she's ready to approach me. I mean, she desires that. She desires affection. She desires to feel loved. But she can't receive it in the same way. And she needs it to, there to be more space in that interaction.
Yeah.
Trenton Reynoldsto just be alone before we go in the house and start interacting. I do much better than if we just drive straight to their house and start things up because I have time to kind of collect myself and consider what's about to happen and how I'm going to relate to them. And, you know, I don't know. It's just that space is really important. for some reason.
CoreyWhen you take that space, do you find that you need to move, or do you need to be still? Do you need to walk in a park, or do you need to sit with a book? How does that work for you?
Trenton ReynoldsI think it's less about literal stillness than it is about-- mental stillness, you know, so yes, like, what I need is to not have, be surrounded by kids and my wife in an enclosed space in the car. I need to be somewhere where I have literal space, you know, so I could be walking down the sidewalk with a podcast in my ear, you know, just something where I feel like I can pull inside and not have to engage as much with with the world surrounding me.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNot have the stimulation.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah, the stimulation, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That all makes sense.
Yeah.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonI don't know how two introverts would, I don't think, I think we're all designed this way differently to complement each other. I think it's interesting because I don't think me being with another introvert would exactly rock my world.
Trenton ReynoldsWell, I do think that's probably part of what just is so awe-inspiring is, like, you see this other person and you're like, how do they do that? You know, because it's so contrary to what, you know, your comfort zone, you know.
Sabrina Ward Harrisondictates well this is just a really good conversation good hour has it been an
Trenton Reynoldshour already I I want to ask one question before I forget oh I appreciate that I wanted to ask Corey I asked Sabrina in our last conversation what song she would she would cite to that encapsulates that moment when you first saw each other. Is there a song?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonOr when we were just together.
Trenton ReynoldsOr yeah, when you were together. Right, that first meeting. I just enabled Siri. she started to play songs what song is that? I have no idea I have no idea
Coreyyeah it's actually remarkably it's the first song on a mix CD that I made for her and the song is called Bloom and I have to go look on my other laptop because I only have six laptops open right now for work.
Trenton ReynoldsHow much did you know about her before you put that on a CD? Bloom, are you kidding me?
Sabrina Ward HarrisonNo, that was my... That was my... Whatever. Okay, keep the name.
Trenton ReynoldsI'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yep, I'm sorry. I interrupted.
CoreyNo, no, no. I... Yeah, there's the whole story of the second date and what I didn't know and, you know, and then the progression of that. But no, I just, I love that song. It's a beautiful song. And when I was trying to put a CD together for her, it's just, that was the first thing I wanted her to sort of hear from me. in that song and it's called Bloom and of course I don't remember the artist right now but it's a very it's pretty much exactly what I felt the moment that I met her
Sabrina Ward Harrisonlaughter So we had this funny conversation last night about, because, you know, there's a range to me, you know, and to think like to find a match for myself in my life, like it takes a, there's a kind of a... It's a big call, you know? It's like, I'm a dynamic person. There's a lot of range. And to find someone who could understand that and celebrate that and also be that way. And, you know, really engaging for me in my mind. and And, but, Corey, last night you were just telling the range of, like, I like the girl that eats meatloaf with her hands.
Trenton ReynoldsAt 3 o'clock in the morning, yes.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonYeah, they can't stop getting up and eating the apple crisp. Who wears a cheetah fuzzy thing over her eyes when she goes to sleep. So, no worries.
Corey- I echo that from my extroverted perspective, quite honestly, to be seen by you, and to be seen, even though I am an extrovert, and for us to see each other, yeah, I mean, this is pretty remarkable for me as well.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonWell that rocked. Thank you for listening to this week and we will be back next week. We're going to talk about supplies and materials and things we like to use and make with our hands.
Trenton Reynoldsmake sure you go to roominthetrees.com we have some links up there for this episode this week rate us on iTunes and we'd love it if you would help us out by becoming a patron at patreon.com forward slash room
t-shirts
Trenton Reynoldsget them they're really great they're so cool really really like how they turned out.
Sabrina Ward HarrisonAnd what should they do this week? What are they going to do? What are we, what's our send out?
Trenton ReynoldsOh, this thing is like after we just talked about a dude who builds barns and duck runs,
it's like,
Trenton Reynoldsyou know, sorry guys, you're just never going to match up.
Yeah.
Trenton Reynoldsgo and hang in there
Sabrina Ward Harrisonthat's great I love it perfect