Trenton ReynoldsThis is Dabalon. My name is Trent Reynolds and in this podcast I have conversations with artists about materials. If you are enjoying this podcast and want it to continue, please subscribe or make a one-time contribution at dabalon.com/podcast leave a five-star rating on iTunes, and tell all your friends. The longevity of this program very much depends on your support, and I thank you. In this episode, I have a conversation with artist Charles Arnoldi, an artist whose work I've been aware of and have admired for many, many years. It really was an honor to get to visit Chuck in his studio and have this conversation with him. I'm a big fan. I am rarely in the artist's studio for these recordings, and I left wishing I could also share some video from my visit, and all I have to show from my visit is the picture of Chuck I posted with this episode. His studio and creative spaces are the stuff studio artists dream of. Big, spacious rooms, wonderful lighting, tons of storage, and every art supply you might want to try. In all the previous episodes of this podcast, the artists I have interviewed have had one, two, or maybe three different primary art mediums they work with. One of the things that impressed me most about my visit with Chuck is how fluidly he moves between creative media. He does not choose to limit his creative production to a certain medium. In fact, it is often a new medium or a new material that will inspire the next body of work. It was challenging to have a conversation about materials when there were so many to talk about. I've thought a lot about this conversation in my visit to Chuck's studio, so there's a lot I would like to say. But I will stop here and get on with the episode. Here is my conversation with Charles Arnoldi.
Charles ArnoldiWell, the thing is, for me, for instance, I came from a very dysfunctional family. and I had a brother and a sister, and my parents frequently would blame us for ruining their lives and stuff. So I spent a lot of time alone as a kid, and I would love to build tree houses and forts. I'd build bows and arrows and spears and stuff. And then I started building model cars back in the day when I'd cut the doors so they'd open. Now they actually have models that do that, and I use corduroy to make it look like tuck-and-roll interiors. And what I realized is that I got attention for when I did stuff, 'cause I was good with my hands, you know, and I had an imagination. And so, and where I grew up, my dream, Dayton, Ohio, was to get through high school and go to work at Delcam Rainer NCR and graveyard shift at a factory, 'cause you got double time. And the mentality in my whole group, that was it. But I constantly, like I was really into hot rods, love cars, and I would pinstripe and I'd draw cars and stuff, right? And so I got attention. And so what I realized is that was, instead of love for my parents and stuff, I got love for being able to do stuff. And I never really knew anything about art. I mean, I was just this naive, dumb kid. But a set of weird things happened, and I ended up in California. My father came to California when he left us when I was in the fourth grade. And I got shipped out here because I was going to be put in a foster home. So he took me. And once I saw California, it was, you know, it enlightened me. God, the world's much bigger and nicer here. How old were you when you-- Well, I was 18. Just graduating from-- I got sent back to graduate from high school because I got in trouble out here, you know. But what happened was I was down and out, and I met a couple. It was a husband who was an architect and his wife was an art teacher. and they moved to California from Michigan. And I met them and they saw my sketchbooks and stuff and they said, "You know, you've got talent. "You should go to school and take art." And I was confused. What do you mean, take art? You know? And so basically they got me to go to Ventura Junior College and I took a bunch of art classes. And I had to take some academics, so of course I cut all the academic course and just went to art classes. And I just had natural ability. I took ceramics, I could throw pots, you know, and the guy was shocked. He said, "God, how do you do that?" I said, "You just do this, right?" And he said, "Never seen anybody just walk in and be able to use a potter's wheel." And in drawing class, they'd give me an assignment, I'd just draw it, and they went, "Wow, you can draw, you know." And so, but what happened was this one guy who ran the art school, he didn't believe in contemporary, he didn't understand contemporary art. He thought once Picasso was over, everything went downhill. And he thought that illustrators were the great artists of the day, Bernie Fuchs and Bob Peek and stuff. And he encouraged me to become an illustrator. Okay, so I did I got a scholarship to go to Art Center Which was on 3rd Street back in a day to become an illustrator And they put me in advanced classes because I already had the facility to do he was giving me assignments for seniors and grooming me for my portfolio and But once I realized that the point of being an illustrator was to sell stuff, I thought, "This is bullshit." And by then I'm starting to become a hippie. And he had warned me not to go to Chouinard or Otis because you'd just end up being nothing, you know. So once I quit Art Center, I went over to Chouinard and I was hanging out. And I just loved being there. I'd sit there and talk to all the guys and go to their crit classes. And so as the next semester came around, I signed up for a shoot in art, you know. And like I told you, they told me painting and sculpture was dead, you know. Everything had been done, and they were pushing conceptual art and performance art and, you know, stuff. But I felt, you know, being a dumb boy from Ohio, I think paintings and sculpture are art. So what I...
Trenton ReynoldsAnd that was your conception of what art was, and was that like fundamentally what you wanted to do?
Charles ArnoldiWell, see, what I was realizing was I was getting attention. So I was validating myself by being creative because I didn't get attention from my parents because I was a good person or anything. Right. And so I was, I used my hands a lot. I was really good at stuff. And so like I told you, I thought that I should try to make paintings that weren't paintings with a paintbrush on canvas. So I experimented with stuff like polyethylene, big huge sheets of polyethylene heat sealed together with powder pigment in them so you'd shake them up. And the powder would cling to the surface by static electricity and I'd make pockets and everything. you know, multiple layers, and they were kind of nice. And then I was in Malibu after a fire, and I saw a bunch of trees that were burned against the sky. So all the leaves were gone, and they looked like charcoal lines. So I thought, I broke a bunch of branches off and thought, here's a hand-drawn line from nature. So I don't have to make the mark, but I can use the line. So I started making tree branch paintings. So I made stick paintings.
Trenton Reynolds- So that seems like a pretty big jump for, well, I don't think everybody would make that jump, right? From seeing this, having a visual experience in nature and being able to see that as an opportunity to translate into, you know, studio art. Were there other artists that kind of gave you that permission to see? Well, here's the deal.
Charles ArnoldiOnce I got introduced to the art world, and I, like, at first I saw magazines. So when I was at Ventura, I would do fake Franz Kline's and stuff that looked shiny, you know, and nice, but imitated. And I would join these art contests at supermarkets and stuff on the weekends. And I'd usually win a blue ribbon or 20 bucks or something. I was very good at imitating. But then I went to New York and I saw what the paintings really looked like. I mean, you know, they're funky and there's scratches and there's fingerprints and stuff. And I realized that a person made that. It wasn't a reproduction. Right. And also you have to understand, Southern California in the late 60s, people were doing experimental stuff, a lot of plastic. Of course, I did some resin pieces and I did some plexiglass paintings, you know, because it fit in with the aesthetic. But the problem was I won a Young Talent Award from the County Museum in 1969, and I wasn't eligible because I was going to school. And they basically threw me out of school because I broke the rules. And also I was making these big plexiglass paintings. Lattie Dillon and I started the Acme Frame Company to make plexiglass frames to hustle money so we could make art. because we were both making plexiglass art. So I started making these six-by-six-foot plexiglass box paintings, and that's what I got the award for. But the thing was that everybody was kind of interested in light and space, and I made light and shadow images, lacquer, sprayed lacquer backgrounds. And I realized at the time, I don't want to be part of this group. I felt somewhat guilty. I like the pieces. Mine were totally unique from everybody else's. But I thought too many people are going after this light and space and transparency and stuff. So then I thought, what else can I do? And like I told you, I thought my job at that time was to do something nobody had ever done before. So when I saw these, you know, burned sticks, I thought, hey, that seems like a natural thing to use. So I brought them in. And when you bring them into a white space... And I put some nails on the wall and hung them on the wall. I thought, "God, that's nice." And the first ones kind of looked like hieroglyphics or something. They were very simple. And then I thought, "Well, why not blow it up into painting scale?" So I'd make them about seven or eight feet square. And then, of course, at first they were flat on the wall. And then I thought they should come out off the wall and cast the shadows. So the shadow become part of the drawing. Okay, and then of course I thought well, you know, I should make them three-dimensional so I made sculpture out of tree branches And at first they were all wood and then I thought to myself I'd like to see some outside because I first found the the branches outside So I cast him in bronze and made freestanding bronze sculptures so they could be outside instead of inside a white cube, you know so everything just seems like a natural evolution and to me I I think if I have an idea, I can use any material to pull that off that I want. There's no reason. I'll make acrylic paintings. I'll make oil paintings. I'll make foam sculptures. I'll make foam reliefs.
Trenton ReynoldsBut I think my question is why. Why? So many artists find a medium that they're comfortable with. They get a certain amount of facility with that material. And then it becomes kind of just the medium through which they express their ideas. And you're like looking for problems.
Charles ArnoldiWell, the deal is that I, like I told you, I got accused of changing. And I was told we could make you a very successful artist if you'd stop changing. Because every time I make something that people like, I would change. Well, my thought was I'm not making art to please an art dealer or to make money. I mean, I like money, I make a living off art, but I never played the game where, you know, I wasn't interested in branding. And to me, part of the thing of being an artist is I think you have to have as much doubt as you do confidence. You see, and I have been extremely fortunate in knowing a lot of great artists like Warhol, Jasper Johns, Rauschenberg, John Chamberlain, Donald Judd. I got to meet all these guys when I was a kid. and they were encouraging, but also, the biggest thing that happened to me, like with Frank Stahl and stuff, you go into a great artist's studio, and you look at stuff, and they never would say, hey, isn't that great? They'd always say, hey, this is something I'm working on, They're trying to get somewhere, but they're not sure where or how they're going to get there. And that's the way I feel. I-- the reason I have so much stuff around here is because I'm looking at it and judging it constantly. I mean, dealers hate it when people come here because they get confused. I have so much stuff. But I try to explain to them, this is my art studio, and I'm not trying to sell people that come over here to art. If they want to buy something, great. But I don't want to catch them and get money out of them. But, you see, I totally believe in art. I have a lot of art in my house, not only my own, but a lot of great stuff. And art gives you something back. It somehow, see, man has an imagination. We're not just surviving. We have all kinds of theories and we go get very abstract. Like, I don't know why we're trying to go to Mars to live, for instance. But people are dead set on going to Mars, for Christ's sake. What's the point? And as a species, we have this ability to have an imagination and believe in people's ideas. And I think that art... gives everybody, people are fascinated by creativity. I mean, you know, like, I think that my job is unique and that I can do this, but it's not really any better than, I'd say, a heart surgeon. I mean, I couldn't imagine doing surgery But it's you know, but a guy that does that he thinks hey, this is normal cut somebody open, you know Now I can't you can't do that So I'm not saying that arts better. It's just another thing that a certain part of our species can do and And like I told you before, when I was a young artist, if somebody came to my studio and said, that reminds me of another artist, I'd consider it an insult. Today, if somebody comes in and goes, that reminds me, say, of Roman or Greek columns, I consider it a compliment because I realize all the... all of our species that were artists, we all share this common feeling and belief in art. Now, where and why and how, I don't know. See, I don't know how or why I can do this, but I can. And for me, it's interesting, like when I talk about valid art, I've been making art over 50 years. And so I can take somebody in that room and show them that piece and they'll go, hey, wow, that's really cool. And you can send that thing to Australia or New Zealand or Timbuktu and people respond to it. So I feel in a sense that maybe I've done pretty good because I've made these inanimate objects that can have a life of their own because I'm telling you and I have a lot of friends that are artists and a lot of people start out well naive enthusiasm and you know and
trying
Charles ArnoldiAnd like success is a trap. Boy, you start selling stuff, people like it. You keep reproducing that. 10 years, 15 or 20 years down the road, you're stuck.
Trenton Reynolds- I've got a question for you along those lines. You talked about in the beginning when you were a kid all the way up through maybe when you started art school that the reason you did it is because you got a certain amount of adoration, right? - Right, right. - A certain amount of positive response. response. But then you're talking now about, you know, Leo Castelli is telling you that if you just stop changing, right, like I can, and then, and that you, you're not making it for Leo Castelli, it will, at what point did it become, did it shift from making it for adoration and approval
Charles Arnoldiinto something more? Well, see, I don't know, but the thing is, I have to admit to you that I could do stuff, And I would wow. I mean I feel good. Well, I can pull this off and People respond and the truth I swear to God it's when I got in the art world Nobody thought you could get rich and famous. You know what? I mean, I would never pursuing this to get richer famous, which I don't feel richer famous by the way But I'm lucky And even when I was a kid, man, you know, if I saw a Tarzan movie or something, I'd go home and go out in the garage and make a knife. You know? And then I'd make this knife and everybody would go, "Hey, wow, that's cool, man." You know? And I wasn't doing it to impress people. I do it because it pops in my mind. But when I did that, I got attention. I'd bring a report card home, and it was cool to get F's. It was terrible to get A's. But my parents never paid any attention. They never said study hard, do, you know. So I didn't get any of that parenting. And nobody, I literally didn't know you could go to college and take art. You know, I don't think the word college was never mentioned.
Trenton ReynoldsIn retrospect, do you see, I mean, I can clearly see that that was something that set you apart and is an advantage maybe that you didn't have that conditioning. But do you see it that way? Do you see in retrospect how that broke you free from some... Well, I can tell you that...
Charles ArnoldiI'm just awfully lucky. How I got here from where I came from, and I could tell you, I mean, I've been, like meeting, you know, Gemini was great for California because they brought, you know, Rauschenberg and Jasper and all these guys out. And they'd, you know, the grinsies would have a party and we'd all hang out together and they'd go, hey man, come to New York, come visit me. I'd go to New York because I'm a naive kid and I'd call up Frank Stelling, hey man, come on over, you know, call Jasper Johns. I mean, you know, and for me though, it felt normal and natural, see. I had buddies, you know, I was always buddies. Growing up, we had gangs, right, of like-minded guys, and we'd make these stupid vows about, you know, we'll do this, we'll do that. And so I believe in that. And the art world, to me, in a funny way, is the same thing. When I met Bankston and Irwin and Larry Bell and all these guys and Ron Davis, they were all, hey, man, you know, I mean, I was part of a scene. And everybody, we'd talk art all the time, argue art, you know, and show each other what we're doing. And it just felt such a natural thing that I never questioned it. And I feel really good when I do stuff now. I want to, you know.
Trenton ReynoldsWas there a point when the adoration of your peers shifted in importance and instead you cared more about the adoration of other artists? Well, it's very nice.
Charles Arnoldito get admiration from artists because they understand the struggle and whatever it is that drives them. So it's really nice if somebody like Rauschenberg tells you, hey man, you're good, you know, which he did. But he encouraged me to do more, you know, you don't make enough art, right? Stuff like that. I think Rauschenberg is the only person I can think of that could tell you that,
Trenton Reynoldslike looking at the quantity of stuff.
Charles ArnoldiPart of the reason I do this is because of stuff like that, you know. And, you know, I mean, getting to, you know, Andy Warhol, I mean, I spent a lot of time with Andy, and he was a nice, normal guy. I mean, aside from his... public image of what people thought he was, we'd sit down and talk about stuff, and it was just like real. He wasn't being Andy Warhol. And I'd hang out at the factory and stuff. I mean, it's just, so for me, These people were just artists. Linda Bangliss and all the girls, Hannah Wilkie, I got along great with them too. I'll tell you, I was fortunate. I can remember seeing Elvis Presley on Ed Sullivan. Okay? Boy, that was a big deal, you know? Here's this guy in a t-shirt with sideburns. Sideburns were the only hillbillies from Kentucky that have them. And he's there wiggling his hips and stuff. Rock and roll changed the world. It made people think about, you know, love and peace and Beatles and all that stuff. And I got to go through all that pre-age, you know, peace and love, you know, I was a hippie, you know, I mean, it was great. I mean, there was no holding back and the honesty and the flowing of ideas and, you know, love and communication and stuff was just really happening. And so, you know, I was fortunate enough to meet, you know, Mick Jagger. Bob Dylan played me in a movie that Dennis Hopper directed, you know. I mean, so for me, the journey I've been on from Dayton, Ohio, is remarkable. But I don't know how. You should see where I live in Malibu. I live on the beach in Malibu, for Christ's sake.
Trenton ReynoldsSo it occurs to me that there are these words that keep on coming up before we start recording, like authenticity or legitimate art. And then it seems like legitimate art has to do with creating something that taps into something larger.
Charles ArnoldiIt has to come from here. Right. Like Jasper Johns, for instance. When I was real young and naive, I went over to Jasper's for lunch. And I'd heard that he had just sold a diaxium map for a half a million dollars. And I said, I heard you sold that map for a half a million. Is art worth that money? He said, Chuck, a painting is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. And then I said, you know, Josh, I heard you had a dream that you painted the American flag. He said, Chuck, I did, and I wish I'd have another dream. Okay? Now, so, I mean, and the other thing that's interesting, you know, creativity. Okay? is so fleeting. See, I truly believe that literally one out of 10 million makes art. People make stuff, but a lot of the stuff just doesn't hold up, you know? And the desire to make stuff is insane. And I mean... I mean, those ball pieces over there, you know, I sent six of them out. I made like 16 or 20 of those in like a week and a half. Now why, I don't know, but I started doing them. I liked them. And then, you know, so, and believe me, I won't do them for very much longer because, you know, I'll get over that. But I just can't help it. And so I keep wanting to reinvent myself. But most people, I mean, I love Miranda. Miranda is one artist that painted the same painting over and over again. I really love and respect that. But I don't see that very often. If you keep painting the same...
Trenton ReynoldsWhat is it about Mirandi? That's interesting you chose him.
Charles ArnoldiWell, have you looked at them? They're really nice. And it is about shape and color and his touch. It's like Jasper Johns is incapable of making a bad painting. He has a touch and an eye and a taste and a feeling and he has ideas Now I may like his earlier paintings better than the latest ones But Jasper, I mean He's pretty damn good Frank Stella. My god, he could be making black paintings or aluminum paintings selling him for a $100 million a piece, but you're not going to catch him doing that. I mean, he makes stuff that makes your heart stop. I mean, it's not all good, but you've got to admire the hell out of him.
Picasso.
Charles ArnoldiI can remember when Picasso was alive, and the art world didn't like his late paintings. Thought he'd gone downhill. Well, the deal is and he was extremely prolific right? Oh, he makes too much art Well, the nice thing see like Picasso died So the art stopped the earth could produce the biggest diamond anybody ever found tomorrow The earth produces stuff, but people that make art it has a lifespan and And the thing you have to admire about Picasso, he went through all these different things because I can tell you, I'm 75. I see things differently than when I was 35, 45, 55. And if the art reflects that, then I think it's honesty. But now, Picasso died. Try to get an old, late Picasso. They're hard to come by. And that's what you have to, what I really admire in artists is, I frequently judge art by I see something if I want to have it. Right. You know, that's the way I feel. Boy, I'd like to have that.
Trenton ReynoldsIf you could steal one painting or one work of art, which would it be?
Charles ArnoldiDo you have a... You know, the thing is, that would be so hard because, you know, I like everything from Brancusi to Vermeer to, you know, I mean, it would be impossible. There is no one thing. It's corny to say Van Gogh, but, you know, I saw some Van Goghs. And you have to look at them and think, Jesus Christ, look at that, you know. But there's so much stuff. I mean, you know, I wouldn't mind having a Clifford Still.
Trenton ReynoldsThere's the Milkmaid painting, Vermeer's Milkmaid, in the Reichs... So you got the stick paintings, you painted on aluminum, you have done shaped paintings with the window series, and that's canvas on panel. You've done built up material and then put sticks in and grinded it down. You've worked with potatoes, then cast bronze. You've done sculpture. You've got those panels that are aluminum panels that you've done acrylic on top of. You've done all sorts of works on paper with printmaking, with gouache, with ink. And then, you know, you went to Alaska. You started using chainsaws and cut down logs that turned into working with this foam. And then you're putting... So, I mean, I wanted this podcast to be about materials, but there's no way that I could get into any depth on any of the materials you use. There's some ceramics right there. Right, and there's ceramics, exactly. But if you were to, can you see a through line? Can you see, are you searching for one thing? You talk about valid art, which seems to have a very specific definition in your mind. What is it that you're looking for with, or trying to... divine out of all of these different materials.
Charles ArnoldiI don't have a clear picture of, you know, I've got ideas. I'm ahead of myself in my head. Unfortunately, you know, I have to work like crazy to get to that place. But I don't have a plan and I don't have a desire to try to do something like with material. It's just an ideal pop in my head. It's like those, like I told you, when I found that in caustic gouache, these old tubes that I probably bought 40 or 50 years ago. Who knows it was in the gouache drawer. And I thought, gee, I wonder if that stuff's so good. So I squirted it out and, God, it added texture to the gouache. So it had brush strokes. So I thought, oh man, I got to do something with that. Now, So I had some aluminum panels left over, and I thought by making those abstract paintings on aluminum panels, it sort of makes them more contemporary. There's something nice about the paint really stands off of the aluminum. You know, I mean, it's also crossed my mind to maybe blow some holes in it, but I don't know if I want to go there, you know? What would you blow holes in it with? Well, I'm not sure if I would maybe just take a hammer to it or, but, and see Bankston, for instance, Bankston... Back in the day he was making these beautiful Masonite paintings, spraying lacquer, because he was a motorcyclist and so he's spraying lacquer seemed to make sense. So he made these beautiful paintings on Masonite. And they were delicate. He'd send them out and they'd come back with a scratch on them or something. So he thought, "Well, I'm going to get some aluminum, bang them up and scratch them." He took a claw hammer and there's one in the bathroom there. Whacked it so that you know he destroyed it and then painted real nice So he thought I'll destroy them before I send them out, you know That kind of thinking is is kind of the way I think too, you know, I mean I'll try something I was walking on the beach yesterday and And my wife's been picking up these, we've been out there for, I built this house 36 years ago. And she grew up on the beach. And she's been picking up shells lately. I mean, you know, it seems corny, but I picked up a bunch of shells yesterday. and I'm seriously considering making some collages out of shells. That sounds pretty corny, but it just dawned on me yesterday.
Trenton Reynolds- That just reminded me of what you were saying back before we started recording. You were talking about this, the relationship, this dialogue between the artist and the material, right? So in that situation where you look at these shells and a conversation starts happening, whether you like it or not, you pick up the shells and all of a sudden they say something to you. Is that kind of what it is? And it's like, you didn't make them say it. They said it, right? And then it's almost like, you know, you launch into this conversation. You have to finish the conversation, right?
Charles ArnoldiWell, years ago I was making the tree branch paintings. I'd branch out and I started making some volcano log jams because Mount St. Helens blew up. So I'd make a panel of branches that, for instance, I saw a photograph of all the felled trees on the side of the mountains and also in the rivers. And they'd jam up against the banks. Yes. So I thought, that's an interesting idea. Why don't I cut a whole bunch of sticks in random lengths, just arbitrary cut the shit out of them, take a table and put an edge on it so it's like the bank of the river and just start shoving the things in there so that the table becomes a mold for the shape of the painting, okay? And so I was doing multiple panels and I decided one day that I should use maybe some larger, maybe almost log-like shapes. Well, I found some logs that had some real nice bark on them. So I thought, oh, that bark looks good. I should make some bark paintings. So I took some shape things and painted the bark, and I really like it, you know. But I only did little ones. I always meant to make some big ones. I just never got around to it. And then recently when I got back into making some wood stuff again, I thought I'd never use a chainsaw again. But I started making these pieces and I found some big logs that had some really nice barks. I made some new bark things and I'm considering, although I don't know if I want to, of making some huge bark panes because the texture and stuff is just spectacular. Or I also thought maybe the smart thing to do would go out, find maybe a big redwood or something, and make a mold of the bark and have it cast in resin or something or, you know, fiberglass, and make them out of fiberglass instead of actual bark. Do you still have a foundry or is that? No, well what happened was I was casting a lot of stuff and I was spending a lot of money and like one day for instance I was at the foundry and I took some sticks down. I said here cast me ten of this and ten of this and ten of this. Now when they take a six foot stick they don't cast it in one piece they cut it into three or four sections. And then they cast those in wax. And they put them together with gating material, where the metal flows. And they make a cup to pour it in, so they make this thing out of wax. And then they melt the wax out and pour the bronze in. Then they cut all the things apart, and weld the stick together, so it comes back to you in one piece. But say it would cost me $1,000 to cast a six-foot stick.
Okay?
Charles ArnoldiSo I was at the foundry one day, and I saw all these buckets of gating material that they cut off. And I said, "What are you doing with that?" And they said, "Well, you melt it back down and use it." And I said, "Well, how much is that?" They said, "Oh, you can have that for 50 cents a pound." So I started buying buckets of waste material and incorporating it in the pieces. In fact, there's some things around here we call them the verb series, where I just took just the wax-gating material. I was sitting down at the foundry one day, and there was a box that was sitting there, and I picked one up, and it drooped. And I thought, that's kind of nice. Go get me a bucket of cold water. So I was standing there, and I'd take this stuff, and it was wax, and I'd do that, and I'd throw it in a bucket of water. So it'd stop. So I said, cast all those things. Okay, so he put them together. So the thing was that I got to where I kept thinking of things to do at the foundry and Once the foundry was a commercial foundry It was just my studio and I got to the point where I didn't like going down there all the time and keep Coming up with stuff. So the guys that work for me I said you guys want to buy the foundry from me and they said yeah, we'll buy I had a Sandmixer and all this stuff, you know And so these two guys who worked for me, they wanted to buy it, but they could never come up with money. So one Christmas I said, you know what? Merry Christmas. The foundry is yours. And they said, what do you mean? And luckily I was renting the building. So I said, you have to pay the mortgage or the rent, but you can have everything in the foundry. And they said, what do you mean? I said, the welders, the ingots of bronze, everything in here, the sand mixer, everything. And they couldn't believe it, right? Now, I went back to them later to make stuff, and then they got in an argument, and they couldn't do it. Anyway, they split up. But one guy still has the founder, I think, and it's called the poor house. But, you know, it's just I get carried away with stuff. So I started casting him. man, next thing you know, I'm casting big aluminum paintings. You know, there's a chainsaw painting in there that I cast in aluminum. I was making these things. I want to cast them. And then they said, well, you don't understand anything about casting. To make a chainsaw in bronze, we would have to cut that chainsaw into a million pieces because there's undercuts and everything. And then they'd have to weld it all back together again and chase it. So I had this harebrained idea, well, what if I just take a big piece of foam and carve a chainsaw out of foam and they will, you know, just melt it out. And they go, that'll do work. So I made, a couple of them are six by six feet. I have a four foot one at home, a chain, bronze chainsaw painting. that weighs like 600 pounds. But there's an aluminum one in there. And see, when I did that, everybody would, when they saw it, if they understood, they'd go, how in the hell did you do that, man? Right. You know, I go, well, I got some foam and made scope for the chains. And I got a big piece of the foam, it was insulation foam, And I'd glue it together and then I'd cut it with a chainsaw or burn it with a torch and then I'd paint it with hot wax and stuff and cast these aluminum paintings, you know, because just experimenting with what's there. I'll tell you, finding, I had a bunch of sculptures where, like, I'd go to foundries and they'd knock off Russell's or Remington's, you know. And in the scrap bins, I'd see one where there's a half of an Indian's head, where it wasn't a good cast. So I'd get all these pieces and incorporate them in sculptures I was making, or feathers, or parts of... And it was really nice, because when I found the tree branches, I appropriated that. And then I see all this scrap stuff, which is just as interesting in a way. I can show you a sculpture out back that's got all kinds of funky shit in it, but it's nice. Right. But it's not the kind of thing I'm gonna do for 40 years.
Trenton Reynolds- Are you a painter? Are you a sculptor? Do you have a primary identity?
Charles Arnoldi- I'm an artist and I'll tell you, I'm a sucker for the art store and hardware stores. See, I used to go in the hardware store and just walk around. Everything, that was part of the thing. See, I can justify making something, Because if I go into a hardware store, I'll pick something up and it has integrity because that is a part of something. Somebody made that for a function, okay? And art's the same way in a sense. I can just, like that Linda Benglis knot, I mean, you know, how dumb is that? But it's valid, you know what I mean? And that's the thing about being an artist. I don't feel like I'm necessarily a painter or a sculptor, I'm an artist. Okay, I mean, it's almost embarrassing to say out loud, but I feel like that's the beauty of what I do. I can do anything I want if I get an idea. And unfortunately, I get a lot of ideas.
Trenton Reynolds- Unfortunately, I think it's a fortunate thing.
Charles Arnoldi- It's-- - It served you well. - Every day, something pops into my head.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd your point is well taken. When you first have an idea, is there a natural instinct at least where to start? Does painting usually, does an idea tend to lend itself there first and then it evolves into something sculptural?
Charles ArnoldiWell, the thing is, it's like the potatoes. I told you I was making those paintings trying to get out of the Hawaiian series. It looked like a potato. You know, you see faces and clouds and shit. Right. It was like that. So I went over to look at produce, and I started picking up potatoes. Not because they're potatoes, because the shapes, the organic forms that were made, and each one's unique.
Right.
Charles ArnoldiThis is fascinating. So I got a bunch of potatoes, and I was casting them in bronze. And I wanted to enlarge them. And Frank Gehry had this new computer that these guys from Germany sent him to enlarge things, okay? And they were going to give a demonstration.
Trenton ReynoldsScan them? Like to scan them?
Charles ArnoldiYeah, scan and reproduce at large or scale. So they wanted Frank Gehry to, because he was a very famous architect that did exotic weird shapes. So I told Frank, hey, I want to enlarge a potato. He said, well, bring it over. They're gonna do a demonstration today. - Oh, you're joking. - So I take a potato over to Frank's, and these guys are setting up this computer carving thing, and they say to Frank, well, Frank, what do you want us to do?
And he goes, Chuck, and I say, here.
Charles Arnoldi"Make this potato larger." And these guys start speaking to each other in German. They spray the thing in there, put it on the machine, and the machine's screwing up, and it's not doing. And they said, "You know, we got a problem here." And I go, "What's that?" He said, "You're an artist. Why don't you just make a big potato?" I said, "Well, why don't you just enlarge it?" He said, "See, what you don't understand is, a potato has, there is no common denominator on a potato. You take a piece of paper and crumble it up and put it in there, and we can make that bigger because there's a common denominator. And a potato, even the skin isn't uniform. So the machine got confused. It couldn't do it. Nature triumphs over technology. It was pretty fascinating. Oh, I'll tell you a funny story, too. There was a guy named Ed Janz. He gave the land to UCLA to build the campus. Anyway, Ed was a fascinating, big art collector, great guy, and he'd have all the artists over all the time. But he was a brilliant man, and he had a bunch of scientists And he had a bunch of us artists and a bunch of scientists for dinner one night. And the scientists were telling us that they could take a recording of Elvis Presley's voice and make him sing anything they wanted, okay? They could do stuff like that. But they said they can't figure out how to make art. So they wanted to experiment with us artists and figure out how could technology become an artist. And we all just laughed at them. And they realized they didn't have a way to use technology to make art. That's fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. All right.
Trenton ReynoldsThank you, Chuck, for making time in your schedule to talk with me. I hope sometime in the future I get the chance to talk with you again and dig a little deeper on some of the topics we covered. Charles Arnoldi is a big enough name that I don't think it is necessary to list a biography. There's plenty to see, read, and watch if you Google him. He is at Chuck Arnoldi. That's C-H-U-C-K-A-R-N-O-L-D-I. on Instagram, and his website is charlesarnoldestudio.com. I will include links to both in the show notes for this episode at dabalon.com forward slash podcast. Next week, I'll have another conversation for you, so come back. Also, write me on iTunes, subscribe on the website, and tell friends and family. and go make artwork you care about.