Trenton ReynoldsThis is Dabalon. My name is Trent Reynolds, and in this podcast, I have conversations with artists about materials. If you are enjoying this podcast and want it to continue, please subscribe or make a one-time contribution at dabalon.com forward slash podcast. Leave a five-star rating on iTunes and tell all the friends. Thanks. The longevity of this program very much depends on your support, and I thank you. In this episode, I am talking with ceramicist Joe Lee, who is also, turns out, a friend from high school days. We have run into each other a couple times over the years since high school, but never quite had the chance to fully catch up. I find it is a special kind of joy to hear from a friend from way back. It is grounding in a very good way. I really enjoyed this conversation with Joe. We get into much more than just materials in this conversation, but I hope you find, as I did, some wonderful thoughts about art and life. Here is my conversation with artist Joe Lee. I'm going to recap. So you... Eighth grade in high school, you have this experience of seeing the glaze. You go through high school. You have an idea that maybe you'd want to teach. You go to college. You take some ceramics in college, but also real estate finance. you decide at the very end of college that ceramics is where you want to be and teaching is where you want to be, you go to Korea to find, kind of, I guess, validate this desire you have to teach and to be a ceramicist and to get experience that you could then bring back and get a teaching job with and feel confident that you've got the... the requisite expertise, right? And then you're back in La Cunada with this fortuitous moment where the position that you had wanted lost that you'd left before you went to Korea opened up.
Joe LeeYeah. So then I get back to school, start teaching again, meet my wife, or meet the girl that's going to be my wife. We start talking about having kids, and I need to leave teaching. I had a part-time position when I came back, and they made it very clear it was never going to be full-time. And if in our conversations with my wife and I, we're talking about kids and, you know, my thought process was, hey, you know, if my wife sees the kid and she decides this, she doesn't want to work. Right now, she's an ICU nurse at Verdugo Hills Hospital. So if she decides she doesn't want to work, then I'm going to have to figure out how I'm going to support this family. And I didn't think that was going to happen as a part-time high school ceramics teacher. So, falling back on my real estate finance degree, I became a commercial real estate broker. And that was like 2012. And so for the last like 10 years, 9 years, I've been really focusing more on that and making that transition. In 2015, I broke off from the company that I was working for and I created my own real estate brokerage firm.
Okay.
Joe LeeAnd honestly, it wasn't until about 10 months ago where that locking out a grad called me and said, Hey, Mr. Lee, this is so-and-so. Do you remember me? And surprisingly, I did. And she goes, remember that studio where we did that workshop?
I said, yeah.
Joe LeeAnd I laughed because it was like... we did it just like one year. It never really happened. It was such a long time ago. It's, it's always surprising what impacts my students. You know, it's certainly not the things I think it is. It's always these other things. Right. And she goes, well, I bought that studio. I said, wow, cool. And she goes, do you want to teach?
And I said, yeah,
Joe Leenothing. I just sat there. I was thinking about it. My son being two years old, I was like, well, you know, I was going to wait until he was going to go to school to even think about doing this. And I have a little electric kill in my garage with a wheel and everything so I can kind of do some stuff. So I wasn't really going to focus on that until much later, but the opportunity presented itself. So I said, sure, I'll do it. And so this year was pretty much the first year that I've been teaching again. And it's been so refreshing for me to do this again. It's such a great place to be.
Yeah.
Joe LeeBut it's a little different because it's smaller, smaller classes, the private studio, and then there's some adults. And it's only different because it's shorter and I got to do everything really quickly. But it's, but, you know, having adults in the class makes, it makes no difference than when I had a class full of kids as students. Everyone's the same when they're learning something new. But what was really weird was how the clay felt in my hands coming back. So I had done ceramics in high school. I had not done ceramics for about four years in college and did it again. And then got really into it and then I was away for 10 years or so and then I'm getting really back into it again. And I feel really confident in my throwing skills at this point. I mean, it's been nearly 30 years since I've thrown, so I feel really confident. What I found really interesting was how I veered away from the instructions that we've been given. So when I've learned how to do potterios, there's kind of a steps. I think it's interesting with art, there's kind of like these concepts that we're trying to teach. And in trying to teach those concepts, we teach these steps to do it. So for, with ceramics, for instance, when you center the clay, you do something called coning up the clay, and then you cone down the clay, and you work with this clay, and you try to make it centered. And I don't know how much you remember from when you were in high school, or if you've even done ceramics afterwards, but there's this process where you cone up the clay and cone down the clay, and you center it. But all you're really doing is you're compressing the clay in various fashions, to make the clay centered. Now, when I was in high school and when I was teaching high school, if I just told my students to compress the clay to center it, I don't think they would have gotten it. But as a result, what we did was we broke it down into steps.
Now...
Joe LeeAs I find myself working with clay these days, yes, there's the steps, right? But I'm throwing more in concepts, if that makes sense. Like I need to compress the clay, so that's what I'm doing. As I'm feeling the clay, I feel a thin spot here, so I will manipulate the clay so that becomes a little bit more balanced here. Generally speaking, and what I'm kind of talking about is when we work on the wheel and when you're throwing your piece, you typically raise the clay from the bottom and go up. But what I found myself doing at times was throwing down, I guess, like taking some of the clay from the top of the piece and moving it down a little bit. and I had caught myself doing that, wondering why I was doing that, you know? Like, I just was kind of working with the clay, and I found out I was doing that, and I was like, wait, that's not something that I usually teach. What am I doing? You know, and it was kind of like this... weird kind of dialogue that I was having with the piece that I was making and was kind of reminded that the reason I like clay is because it also has, in some sense, a mind of its own.
And...
Joe LeeAnd I'm not a painter and I don't sculpt with other materials. And so I don't know what that relationship is between, say, you and paint or you and a pencil. Like maybe you have a special pencil and you can feel it feels right. I don't know. But for me with clay... it was that reminder that there's this relationship that I'm not simply controlling the clay, but the clay also works with me too. Right. And it sounds like such a cliche when I, when I go into the ceramic studio and everyone's like, Oh, I love this material. It's like, you know, it works with you. And, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of weird to come back to that scene when I've been in this situation, business world for, I guess, 10 years. And then to come back to it, it's like refreshing, but the same side, I see the kookiness of it. Like, you know, when I was in it, I was like, oh yeah, the clay just like works with me. And when I was like deep in it, like it made a lot of sense. But when you hear someone else say it and you're not in it, like they do sound crazy, right? So it's like, yeah, man, whatever. And then you start working with it and you're like, yeah, I remember that feeling. I remember what you're talking about. Right. And so...
Trenton ReynoldsWell, I think what you're saying resonates so much with my own experience. And I think it sounds kooky until you really can internalize that the art material is not a passive participant. Right. Right, that the art material itself is, is, is a character is is has its own, its own life its own opinions its own it's so so the process of creation is less akin to a math problem where you have. you know, a formula that you plug these numbers into and it yields, you know, a solution. And it's more like a conversation. Right. And I think unless you've ever experienced that, that this is not a following steps. This is a conversation. It's just it sounds kooky because you're you're treating this inanimate thing. You're treating this, you know, non sentient material as if it were something. you know, that as if it had will, you know, or as if it were live and, you know, opinionated as it were, right?
Joe LeeYeah, yeah, exactly. I think for like the last 10 years working in commercial real estate, the conversations you have with people typically are negotiating things, right? where you're trying to find this end point where everyone's kind of content, I guess. And when you start to have those conversations with Clay, it becomes very strange, especially when the conversations you had with Clay were of a different nature 10 years ago.
Hmm.
Joe LeeYou know, like... And it's really strange for me to be in the commercial real estate world or this business world because the artist that I was. And it's strange for me to be the artist I am trying to be or that I'm growing into because of the business world that I am. was exposed to as well. You know, it's kind of like these two contrasting places that I constantly find myself in and constantly having different dialogues and conversations with.
Trenton ReynoldsDo you find that your creative process or the things that you're learning or experiencing as a ceramicist creep into the way that you interact with people in the real estate world? Or does that not really work that way?
Joe LeeI don't know the cause and effect. I'm not sure, but... I found myself one day, we were at a, it was a real estate workshop, and they're talking about the frustrations of not being able to make so much money or whatever, right, from doing a flip or a project. And I raised my hands, I said, well, maybe you wouldn't have such an issue with it if you weren't trying to make all the money in the world, right? Like, if it didn't have to do so much about money. And the room got so quiet and you hear like chuckles. And they're like, "Why are you even here then?" Like, "We're doing this to make money and now you're proposing that we shouldn't stress out about it by saying that maybe we shouldn't make as much money?" And I was like, pretty much exactly. That's what I'm saying. And like half the room chuckles. And the lady who's hosting this event, she's, you know, hosting the conversation. She goes, that's not a bad point. You guys are laughing now. just hold on to that message and just wait. Right? So there was someone, she was the one person that seemed to understand. And I constantly, and I don't know, this might be a self-conscious thing. I constantly point to my inefficiencies as an artist because, my business background and vice versa. Right. But I also find myself saying that I can provide more in both arenas because the different backgrounds that I have, right. I'm providing a different thought process for, for, for some of those people that didn't laugh in that room. I'm sure they were thinking like, huh, that's not a bad thing. that's not a bad point. They just didn't say it. Right? And I feel like now that I'm in the business world and I think about how I treat my artwork, you know, is it something I want to sell? Is it something I don't want to sell? how do I convey this method to someone so that they can learn it? I feel that the conversations that I had in business, because oftentimes they're not, when you're negotiating two people aren't looking at things eye to eye, it's helping me to understand, It's helping me create suggestions to my students so they can see eye to eye with what I'm saying so then they can learn So in a sense, there's like this thing that's all-encompassing But at the same sense is this thing that says like oh you're not You're not included right So this is this weird weird kind of Dialogue taking place in my mind as well as this all happens, right?
Trenton ReynoldsRight. You got a little two-way imposter syndrome.
Joe LeeOh, yeah. Best of both worlds. And I'm a Gemini. Best and worst. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So I'm just going to gnaw on that for days and days and days.
Trenton ReynoldsThat's so interesting to me to think of... Because, and I guess ultimately one of the reasons that I want to have these conversations about art materials is just to try to get at get to the bottom of why, what is it that brings you and me back to these materials. day after day, year after year, you know, if there, if there's a break, you like, you kind of anticipate that you will return someday to, to doing that thing, whether it's painting, sculpture, ceramics, whatever, what is it so compelling that keeps you going and keeps you exploring? It keeps you tied to that thing because it's not money. Right. And I guess, right. Like, so, and, and, Then you go to, I don't know, context where the main driver is money, right? And you sense how empty that is, right? That it's missing something really vital. in terms of just like keeping, sustaining life in your soul, right? Right. In your heart, right? Right. But then, you know, the reverse is also true. The older that I get, the more I realize that, well, if you want to do this art, if you want to get this fill up and this meaning of life from creation, from creating, Money, we live in a capitalist society. That's how we understand an exchange value, right, to a certain degree. So you have to engage with that at some level, right, and do it in a way that doesn't taint or remove the motivation, right? from this other source, but somehow you got to figure out how to make them work in concert, right? Where they, they empower each other without, uh, you know, soiling or, uh, diminishing the other. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm being a little bit too vague and, but it, it feels like you're this conversation that you're having between the business side of your life and that person persona that you have to have. Uh, and then the, the artist persona, uh, Like that tension and dialogue is very much what, you know, I personally feel like I struggle with.
Joe LeeSo, yeah, no, I agree. There is this sense that the two can't thrive together, right? Like the starving artist, right? It's hard to, yeah. Yeah, and I believe that it's not as appreciated. in this society that we live in as is making more money for people, right? Like the only thing that's worth doing is making money or making more money for people is what it seems like. And so...
Trenton ReynoldsJoe, I'm going to interrupt you just for a second because it strikes me. I don't want to lose a thought. And the older I get, the easier it is for me to lose thoughts. I'm realizing that when you told me about that room and saying what you said, that maybe that there's another motivation or maybe there's another solution that isn't make all the money. And people laughing at that or chuckling at that. That to me is such a potent metaphor in my mind. Right, like, well, yeah, yeah, I mean, that, that laughing, right, that laughing, they're missing it. They're missing something that is that can bring so much joy and so much meaning. And I feel like it's a sickness of our of our culture to laugh at that to laugh, that there might be something more than monetary exchange.
Joe LeeAnd then perhaps for them, there isn't. Maybe the monetary is what they thrive on. And I met people, and I'm not judging them, but that's what propels them and that's what excites them, and that's good for them. But I think... More so, I'm not thinking about the person that doesn't get it, right? Because I think at this point it's not my job for people to, it's not my job to have people get it, right? I just answer the question based from my experience and from my heart. And so I think if there's anything that came out of it, it was probably the quiet people that thought that maybe there is more like, why am I doing this? Like, is the money the most important thing? Like, if it's going to stress me out this much, what's the component of this that I really enjoy? And so I wonder and I hope that maybe some of those people thought, yeah, I really do like to flip houses or I really do like to. collaborate and bring funds together so we could do a real estate project. Maybe there's some part of it and, hey, the money's part of it. But maybe to some it's just chasing the money and real estate's just one way they're doing it. Well said.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd I don't mean to imply that there isn't room for all types with people having different motivations, different things that are meaningful to them. But I do think that... And one of the things that you said earlier is when you have a student and you see them get it, right, when you see something click, something new makes sense, and all of a sudden this whole other realm of possibility opens up to them. This whole new... world of meaning that they could find a value of experience of, you know, just depth. You know, there's something so fulfilling and enlarging about that moment for both student and teacher, right? Yes. And that's kind of what I hear you saying is it's those people that are quiet, you know, it's like, And you like you almost I mean, I want to then be able to say, OK, come to the. Come to the studio, right, like let me show you these things that are going to blow your mind and going to make you your life that much richer. Anyway, I'm sorry. I keep on cutting you off.
Joe LeeNo, I mean, that's, you know, I think the thing with teaching, and not necessarily only art, I think it's just teaching anything. For sure. Because I think I've taken a very... I guess, egotistical sense or, uh, very egocentric view of, of what it is to have that aha moment in that it could only come with art because to me, that's where it came,
you know? Um, um,
Joe LeeBut I think that that's possible. And I think that's why a lot of people teach other things as well, because whatever they're passionate about, they're teaching. And then when their student gets that aha moment with that, then that's that. And maybe after that, they know how to, create equations or maybe they know how to create a molecular bond or I don't know what it is but after that moment you know they they they're able to understand that this veil that has been hanging in front of them is now lifted and they they have a different perspective right right for
Trenton Reynolds- Sure, well said. I guess I had assumed as well that the reason that you went to Korea is because you're Korean and you wanted somehow to maybe connect with some kind of family history or sense of whatever, identity. But it sounds like it was a more practical decision. Did you, was there any of that that ended up happening though when you went to Korea? Is the having to speak the language, having to, I don't know, like was there an identity thing component that evolved? Or was it purely in the end just a practical decision of getting a degree and getting distance from Korea? from the U.S.?
Joe LeeOh, I have to think that living in Korea or living in any country for three years is going to impact you. Certainly, like learning the language, because my Korean wasn't very good. I remember early on living in Korea, I made a friend with an expat who, And he's a white guy from Wisconsin teaching English. And we went to a restaurant together, and he had to order because his Korean was better than mine. So I did learn a lot of Korean. I did learn a lot about the culture. I did learn a lot of stuff, everything. I don't know if I want to say it was intentional or not, i.e. that's why I went to Korea to learn ceramics versus somewhere else to learn ceramics. But yeah, I'd have to say there's a lot of stuff that just happened in terms of growth unintentional, you know?
Trenton ReynoldsWhat about specifically learning the traditions of ceramics that came from that part of the world? Was there something especially meaningful to you? about that, about learning those processes or those techniques, those materials that
Joe Leewas different than what you had learned in the U.S.? Not so much. It was nice to feel a different type of clay. It was nice to experience a different kind of zeitgeist. because they don't do ceramics the way we do ceramics exactly, or the trends are a little bit different, rather. So in terms of material, I didn't feel like I connected with the roots of Korean pottery, so to speak, if that's what you're asking. Yeah. It was very much a contemporary educational experience. Got it, got it. Yeah. Like I wasn't like stomping on clay with my bare feet. Yeah, there was none of that.
Trenton ReynoldsAnd I guess I've been watching, you know, as I guess we're all kind of I shouldn't project on you, but I know I am sucked into Instagram stuff. been TikTok watching, but I've been watching these videos of various Asian techniques of tapping on the clay, so hand building, and then it's on the wheel, but they're like
Joe Leepatting it with a device, tapping on it. Oh, yes. They have a big...
Trenton Reynoldsum, like a wooden paddle. Yeah. Yeah. And they just smack, smack it into shape as it turns around on the wheel. Anyway, uh, some of those things are so, so different than, than kind of anything that I would have experienced, you know, growing up at ceramics in a, in like an American high school setting. I was wondering if there's any of that kind of, uh, I don't know, take, that you would have come across?
Joe LeeI mean, I think that we probably, the world is small enough that we share a lot of those same methods. I remember, for instance, there was a girl in high school who was a year above us or two years above us who was using that exact same method to create a big coil pot that she had made in class. So I don't think that the methods are like unique to any given country. It's like cool to see if they're still doing it like traditionally. Like I know that there's some places where they have wheels and like to propel the wheels. They use like sticks instead of kicking them. So like to see that is cool. But yeah, my education was very much, you probably would have gotten the same education at an American college. - Got it, got it.
Trenton ReynoldsBut it seems like I have read somewhere in your comments where you talk about a traditional kind of glaze or a traditionally Korean type of glaze or traditionally Korean kind of maybe a form. Am I misremembering? I think maybe you're thinking about the moon jars I was making. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Joe LeeThe moon jars. So moon jars, I don't necessarily think that they're Asian in its purest form, but it's just simply a round vessel. And they're not perfectly round because they say when you see the moon, it's never perfectly So they called them moon jars. But one of the things that was traditionally Korean in terms of design was the use of slip on the exterior of a piece. This was done because at the time the royals were using porcelain. And then the common people did not have porcelain. So what they do is they dip their pieces in porcelain slip to get something very similar. And then that practice is called pun chung. Pun chung where is that slip. that became a design of its own where they would use a slip and then carve away at that slip to expose the clay beneath. Or maybe they would put slip and then draw on top of the slip as it created a nice white canvas, etc., etc. But it became its own kind of category of ceramic art. And so I used it, but... And it's not for anything other than just to get a different color on my clay. Because I typically like to use a dark body clay. I like when it fires, it turns like a nice dark chocolate brown. And so when you glaze things on top of it, it becomes very muted because the clay is very dark. So I dip my piece into like a porcelain slip so I can have some of that white canvas so I can show off color. Got it. Yeah, so that is a Korean style. Like, it doesn't change the way I work with the clay, though.
Trenton ReynoldsIt's just like a surface design. This whole podcast, I've had several conversations now about, And I think part of the motivation of having the podcast is to find the right question. I don't know if that makes sense, but I still don't know if I have the right questions to ask. And it's something that I'm searching for or that I'm trying to understand better about myself maybe is what it is and why. And so I'm going to try to ask it, but I'm not sure if it's going to come out any more successful than it has in the past. But it has to do... How's that for a setup? It has to do with this idea of why... Are you a ceramicist? What has kept you? What has brought you back? There was that moment maybe with magic with the glaze early on, but there's a lot of moments of magic in our lives that could take our attention and our hearts in different directions. What kept you coming back? What keeps you coming back? Why clay? Why ceramics? I don't know. Is it how it feels? Is it the way that your mind can get lost and three hours go by in that flow state? Or like... Why clay? And I ask that to myself, like, what is it about, you know, the various things that I do painting, drawing, like, what is it about studio art that I feel lost if it's not part of my life?
Joe LeeYeah, I wish I could tell you. I mean, there was a piece that I just glazed. I just grabbed it from my studio and glazed it for my students for a demo. And it's dated 2015. Yeah. So, you know, in that time when I was in, I had started my business as a real estate, commercial real estate agent and broker. But knowing I had my setup in the garage, I, in 2015, made like four or five pieces and then fired them. Right? So, the question is, why ceramics? Right? And I think, or is it why art, right? To me, I think it's ceramics because it's like I'm proficient at it, right? Like I can't, you know, pick up-
Trenton ReynoldsBut you could have gone and it just as easily gone over to the art room and picked up some oil pastels and started drawing, right? Like you didn't have to go to the ceramics room.
Joe LeeNo, I was put in the structure room and you gave me the clay. So it could have been that she made me do it. But I think one of the things I like about ceramics is because I've always been kind of on the other side of being the math guy, the science guy. Pottery more so than like hand building because hand building, you have to actually do stuff. But with wheel throwing, when you're on the wheel, you just keep your body still, right? Like, in fact, if you can't keep your body still, you're gonna mess it up, right? So to me, it was like this thing like, And maybe I project it to my students by saying, hey, don't worry, you don't need to be a good artist to be good at ceramics because they always come in, oh, I'm not good at art. I say, well, you don't need to be good at art to be good at ceramics. You just need to keep your hands still, right? And so a lot of these kids that were like more math, science kids, whatever, they just keep their hands still and they're making like these wonderful pots right and so it seemed to me that this was the one art that was welcoming to me that allowed me to do art um you don't want to see my drawings you know like i have to work really hard to make a drawing look like something And then like at that I had to keep that up because it's it's a skill so I remember when I was teaching beginning drawing When I first started like my god I was like sketching like a madman to make sure that my my skills were up, but when I don't draw I can't draw, you know and so I naturally I think, you know, I don't want to do something that I'm not very good at. Right. And, and naturally now I don't want to spend as much time on something to learn it because I don't have much time, which is sad, right? Because I want to learn a lot of things, but part of it is like, if I'm going to spend some time, I don't want to spend time learning it right now. I just want to go out and I'm going to make a pot. And so I think part of it is the proficiency. part of it was, and like a relationship, part of it was that it did certain things for me at certain times. Like it really centered me when I was in my 20s when I needed centering. So I was able to just kind of focus on that and kind of think about my life as it revolves around the wheel. right? Having a centered life, then I can make something. Things like the pieces of a pot, the parts of a pot are actually named parts of the body. I mean, this kind of philosophy is what drove me through some of these times, right? You're not done unless you're put to the fire and you've had stress, then you become something beautiful, right? So there's all these little bits and pieces of ceramics and the philosophies I think that, that potters kind of hold true to that got me through certain times. Right. And, you know, there was a reason why for the last 10 years, I didn't really need to do pottery because, you know, I, my, my life wasn't calling for it.
And then, you know,
Joe LeeYou know, coming back to it now, I would never have known how great it is if I hadn't been away for it for so long.
Right.
Joe LeeRight. So I feel like there's this constant relationship. It's kind of like the giving tree. It's different at various times and it provides different things at various times. Right? Sure. It's just the relationship that I built with this material and with this art. I think it's interesting you asked me, what is it about this material that brings you back? Right? And the material is very responsive. going back to the wheel was like riding a bike. Like I didn't forget it. Whereas like for me drawing, like if I didn't draw for a while and I went to draw, like I wouldn't know what I was drawing. Right. It was like, what the hell is this? This is crap. It's something that looked good. But with, with clay, like I could always go back to it. And I don't know if that's the material. I don't know if that's the mentality. I don't know what that is. It's just a part of life that always reminds me that that's there for me.
And so...
Joe Leeyou know I think it's kind of mutual too because I I would buy a bunch of clay like I'd have like 500 pounds of clay and then I'd use it and eventually I'd stop using it and then it'd be like 10 years and then clay is all dried up right you can't do anything with it so I need to soak it up in water wedge it up and reconstitute and make it usable it's almost like a mutual relationship You know, like the clay is sitting there dormant while I'm there, you know, dormant in terms of doing strength work. And it's not until we wake each other up that we can that we can work. So. To me, I feel like there's it's it's not just the material, it's actually like a thing, like it's a some it's like someone I'm having a relationship with, you know. And it is really like the giving tree. Although as an adult, I read the giving tree. I feel really bad because that guy totally just destroys the tree.
Trenton ReynoldsYou haven't destroyed all the clay.
Joe LeeYeah, right. I hope it's not like that. But it's that kind of feeling where there's different needs and different wants as I change my phase in life. And for some reason, it's always there to fulfill that.
You know?
Trenton ReynoldsI think that's... You've given the right answers. It is all of those things.
Joe LeeIt is all those things. I don't know... I think the reason I understand like with a podcast you're thinking the questions and you're the questions are always hard to come up with because you're trying to ask the same thing. You want to know the same thing, but you're asking different people in different times. So it's it's hard to figure out how to get that answer. But yeah. I think for me, it's always been a relationship. It's always been this thing that we've, I think, always taken for granted. Like Clay always knew I would be back and I always knew I'd be back with Clay. I just didn't know when or where or how, but I always knew that there was going to be a space in my life for that. You know, so like the garage, it always has some some stuff that can work with clay, you know, is always there. Will I use it? I don't know. Have I used it for the last 10 years? Geez, I'm ashamed to say it's been sitting there untouched for like eight, nine years. But not now, right? But it knew it was going to come back. And I knew I was going to go back. And that's kind of the relationship with me and Clay. I don't know how to define it. And I don't know how to tell you why. It's not a tactile thing. It's a very personal thing.
Trenton ReynoldsMaybe that's ultimately the question. Is there a unifying principle underlying all of those, how each different artist relates to their materials in different ways? Is there something underneath all of that, some kind of uniting principle that motivates that or drives that?
Joe LeeI know what you're asking, and I understand how it could be such a hard thing to ask. I think it goes to like a subconscious level of why we work with certain things. Right. We certainly know that this is the medium we like to come back to, or this is like what we like to touch and do, but why?
Yeah.
Joe LeeI would just say it's the energy, the energy between two things. You know, the energy is dormant sometimes and sometimes it's not, I mean, there've been so many times where,
you know, like,
Joe LeeI thought about making certain things, but I didn't get to, right?
For whatever reason.
Joe LeeLike my clay was rock hard or I didn't have time because I was changing diapers or, you know, life, right? So I think... every one of us probably, if experienced the right way, has some sort of calling back to or connection back to some sort of art. Whether or not we listen to that voice within is another thing, right? Because it's so easy for me not to have come back to ceramics.
Right?
Joe LeeLike I'm making money now, it's keeping me busy. I have a family, like I don't want to do this ceramics. In fact, working in teaching at the studio puts more work on my plate than it does now. Right? You know, I know it's something that I want to do and it's it's it's forever in my DNA, right? So to speak. Yeah, and I think we all have it I just don't I just wonder how much we listen to the voices the voices that are inside our body in our heads and when I when I go to that workshop and you think about the laughter right and how they don't get it and I hear the laughter and it's kind of sad because I think they forgot it.
Hmm.
Joe LeeYou know, at some time in their lives, there was something that, that pulled this person to want to do it so much. And then somewhere in those lives, um, they lost and forgot about it. And I think we, and this is me personally, I'm sure people don't agree with this, but I feel like a lot of people earn a lot of money to try to find that thing that they have not been listening to. Mm-hmm. you know absolutely but i think they forget how to learn it because that's a that's a that's a skill in itself you know i mean we grow up we forget about all the passions that we used to have as kids and all the things we used to do i i think we're supposed to have kids to help us remind ourselves of that thing but we wear different help we wear different hats and so we never realize that So I think for those of us that are blessed to still be in it and to remember, I think it's a gift. And for those who laugh, I think they forgot. That's the sad part.
Trenton ReynoldsIt is a sad part. I taught for 10 years at Santa Monica College, Emeritus College, so retired adults. Yeah. So I can't tell you how many times I saw people come in that were, they were retired, they'd gone through their whole lives and had careers and they came and wanted to take an art class because it's what they had always wanted to do. Or that it was a dream that kind of always sat there and they didn't know what to do with, but life got in the way and... And, you know, then having those moments where they, you know, finally get to make that kind of connection to whatever that is, the creative impulse or, you know, it's, I don't know, kind of like what you're saying. It's like they get to remember that feeling. And it's a little depressing to me just because I don't think it's nearly as hard to get there as people think. You know, it's like...
it's right there.
Trenton ReynoldsYeah.
Joe LeeBut the perspective is different too. I mean, like, you know, like everything, well, perspective is different. Everyone has their reasons for not being able to do things, you know? For sure. I think it's just nice to be able to be the steward of those types of things and to bring it back to them. Yeah, for sure.
Trenton ReynoldsIs there somewhere that I can send people to see your work? I know Mr. Lee Pottery, is that?
Joe LeeYeah, Mr. Lee Pottery at Instagram. On Instagram. Yeah, I haven't been able to do as much as I'd like, but slowly and surely I will.
Trenton ReynoldsOh, good. I look forward to seeing more.
Joe LeeWell, thank you for having me. It was good to speak with you after all this time. Thank you.
Trenton ReynoldsThank you, Joe, for a great conversation. It left me feeling both hopeful and grateful, which are two feelings I need more of. You can find images of Joe's work on Instagram at mrlee.pottery. If you happen to live in Pasadena or Altadena area, you should definitely check out Green and Bisk Clay House and learn pottery from the best, Mr. Lee himself. Thank you. And thank you for listening to Dabble On. I'm glad you're there. I will have another conversation for you soon. So come back. Also rate this podcast on iTunes, make a donation on the website and tell friends and family and all will be well.