WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.720 This is Dabble On. 00:00:04.120 --> 00:01:38.880 My name is Trent Reynolds, and in this podcast, I have conversations with artists about materials. If you are enjoying this podcast and want it to continue, please subscribe or make a one-time contribution at dabbleon.com forward slash podcast. Leave a five-star rating on iTunes and tell all your friends. The longevity of this program very much depends on your support and I thank you. In this episode, I have a conversation with artist Elaine Spafford. As with several of my other guests, I found Elaine's work on Instagram and have been a fan of hers for a very long time. Before we started recording, Elaine told me that she had listened to some of the previous episodes and noted: that there wasn't much talk of art materials in some of them, which is a totally fair and appreciated observation. I thought it worth mentioning here that it has been somewhat of a challenge to me to figure out how to keep conversation focused on materials. Not all artists are as interested as I am in digging into this topic or digging into it in the way that makes sense to me. So, I'm still learning how to have this conversation, and want to acknowledge that for those of you who are interested in more materials talk. I appreciate your patience while I figure this out. Luckily, Elaine and I seem to be on a similar enough art materials wavelength. and had no trouble getting into the advertised subject matter. Here's my conversation with artist Elaine Spafford. 00:01:42.140 --> 00:02:01.600 One of the things that I'm drawn to yours is the relationship between the smaller works, or I don't know if you consider them preparatory works, in the sketchbooks. Yeah. Do you think of those as complete works themselves? Maybe let's start there. Let's start with the sketchbooks. 00:02:01.600 --> 00:02:34.800 Well, those I do think of as complete works in themselves, and I couldn't replicate them as much as I would love to. I can't because everything that I do is in the process, and that's just not replicatable. It wouldn't replicate them, not able to replicate. It just wouldn't look the same. It wouldn't have the right feeling. if I tried to replicate them. Plus a lot of it is collage, and I'm working around the shapes that already exist there, and it wouldn't be possible to re-collage something on a large scale the same way I did the small way, I don't think, anyways. Not the exact same way. 00:02:35.140 --> 00:02:42.980 So you don't see them as part of a process that gets you to an end result. These in themselves are finished works. Do you present them as such? 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:44.400 Yeah, I think so. 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.100 So in a show you... 00:02:47.100 --> 00:02:48.600 You would show these? 00:02:48.600 --> 00:03:25.500 You know, I don't show those. I have never shown those. So what translates from the sketchbook work is there's a lot of work that I do on raw canvas. And those are really quite similar to the sketchbook piece. very much so. The way I'm loose when I'm working with the small ones isn't really the same as the way I'm loose when I'm working with the big ones. And I always, it's always my hope that, you know, they, you can tell it's the same artist, that it's the same hand that's doing it, but sometimes even myself I look at them and I'm like, man, like those are, that is so loose and that one is so structured, but that's just the way my work is. 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:28.740 You feel like when you go larger, they tend to get more structured? 00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:44.800 Yeah, they do. Well, and also if I'm not, I really have to concentrate to keep things loose. If I don't, they get structured. I'm super type A in that way. And if I'm not thinking about it, my natural inclination is just to have straight lines and the colors in the lines. 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:56.740 What do you think it is about the size difference that allows you to be loose? Is it just purely the logistics of getting enough paint on the surface or working with pieces of paper that are larger than yourself or whatever the case? 00:03:56.740 --> 00:04:25.100 I think that's it right there. And brush size. I mean, I do use large brushes, but with the big canvases that I work on, they're 84 by 50. I would need a really, really big brush to... sort of translate what I do with the small ones. Plus, I also think that I just have this in my mind that when it's a smaller piece, it can be more simple. When it's bigger, it needs to entail a bit more meat. I don't know why that is, but... 00:04:25.100 --> 00:04:33.140 A bit more meat in terms of the thickness of the paint that you're putting on or the material that you're working with? Not so much. More the 00:04:33.140 --> 00:04:38.240 materials. More the materials and the amount of imagery, I guess, that's on there. 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:39.660 Got it. 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:48.440 - Got it. You seem to have no problem leaving negative space or like more open areas of the composition though. Is that not what you're talking about? 00:04:48.440 --> 00:04:56.760 - No, but some of the smaller works, it might just be two shapes and a background. That's not something that I would do with a large piece. 00:04:56.760 --> 00:05:02.000 - What is it that is in the larger pieces that aren't in the smaller pieces? Or what compels you to do larger pieces? 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:22.740 The pieces that have a lot of interconnecting and interlocking shapes, the larger canvases, it's easier to do that because I have just more shape to work with. It's really difficult to do that. Like if I'm working on a piece that's eight inches by eight inches, it's not the same when I'm trying to make those same kind of shapes all connected together. It's a whole different process. 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:28.200 Do you think of them differently in terms of how you're constructing them? Or is it just a larger version of the smaller thing? 00:05:28.200 --> 00:05:35.360 Yeah, I guess I do think a little bit differently. I think it translates back and forth, but I do think of them a little bit differently. Yeah, I do. 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:46.300 So with the large ones, they're on canvas, it looks like, and they are pre-stretched and are they raw or do you prime them first? 00:05:46.300 --> 00:05:56.060 They're primed, yeah, because I do lose oil on top and so I really need to make sure that the base of the canvas is covered before I start with the oil. 00:05:56.060 --> 00:06:04.880 Do you have any strong feelings about types of canvases or the coarseness of the weave or anything like that? 00:06:04.880 --> 00:06:44.000 I don't like a real coarse weave because when I'm working with really fine edges, it's harder to get that nice, clean, crisp edge. yeah unless i'm working with if i'm working with linen um i sort of work a little bit differently when i work with linen that's more of a sort of a textile sometimes that's not stuff i've shown a lot on instagram yet but i will eventually but um there's a lot more textiles and sewing on and gloves of paint going on do you prefer linen just as a material absolutely 100 yeah i do what is it about linen oh i just i love the naturalness i love the color i love the Yeah, it's almost for me like the difference between acrylic and oil. I love oil, just love oil. 00:06:44.080 --> 00:06:56.300 And do you start right away with oil? No, I always start with acrylic, yeah. Is that just because that gives you more flexibility in terms of the scope of mark making you can do? Or is it just it goes faster? 00:06:56.300 --> 00:07:41.560 Well, the way I start is I start with the collage and then I just sort of do an acrylic background. And that's where the drips and the scrapes and the scribbles and all sorts of stuff is going on back there. And then I can add and, you know, I can sometimes I'll rip off collage just to leave the mess that's there I like or I'll sand it down or all of that kind of stuff I would do with the acrylic background. just because it's easier, it's quicker to dry, but also because when I come with the oil afterwards, the things that come through the final painting of the acrylic, I can do a really nice glaze of oil over top and have that acrylic coming through, but I can sort of remove a bit of the... you know the almost plasticky brightness of acrylic that I don't like. 00:07:42.140 --> 00:07:49.480 Right, for sure. Do you do a final coat of Damar varnish or something? I don't. 00:07:50.100 --> 00:08:05.620 I don't, no. And that's something I've... Yeah, I've dabbled with that many times. I'm really anti-sheen. I don't like any sort of a sheen at all. And I haven't yet found a varnish that I really like. 00:08:06.220 --> 00:08:09.040 Like a waxed medium, like Dorland's or whatever? 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:39.960 Well, you know, Dorland's, that particular wax was my favorite product for a couple of years until I realized that you can't really paint that on canvas because it does crack eventually. Right. and so I have a whole period of paintings and I often, the big ones when I send them to galleries or ship them I roll them so you can't really do that with wax so I have a little probably about a year and a half of paintings that... I had to destroy because of that. 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:44.340 Oh, gosh. Yeah. I bet there are a couple of horror stories behind that. 00:08:44.560 --> 00:09:04.740 Yeah. And when I actually realized what had happened, I was like, oh, God. Some of those I've sold, and I don't even know where they are. And I'm just waiting for someone to come back to me and say, you know, this painting cracked. And, you know, fair enough. I'll make you whatever else you want if that did happen to you. Yeah. But yeah, for the most part, like some of them are hanging in my husband's office. Some of them I've just taken out the canvases and thrown away. 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:13.320 Can you heat that and have it melt or fuse back together? Or does that not work with, I mean, it's a wax, right? 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:17.660 I don't know. I don't know. I haven't tried that. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:11:14.120 I wonder if you were to heat it from behind, like on the backside of the canvas, so you're not spraying the heat directly on the surface. Well, yeah. Right. might help fuse it together. Oh my gosh. That's a good point. I never thought about that before. What a, what a disaster though. I had a, I had a whole, whole show of paintings. And the last thing I did is I put, you know, a coat of, you know, it was a mixture of stand oil and, and refined linseed or something like that, just to give, it kind of a final sheen consistency so because there were some spots that were a little bit matte and then over the course of the show this like acid neon yellow splotch it was a disaster it was awful yeah that's the stuff that scares me about varnish yeah yeah i don't do varnish now um depends recently i've been doing more with um uh with resin okay so um it's more of figuring out ways to keep it from getting shiny than trying to get it more shiny how would you unshiny resin uh there's a lot of different ways i am so in uh in love with resin it's such a versatile material but you can um while it's curing you can put calcium carbonate just chalk dust okay yeah and that kind of gives it this nice matte sheen You can also, what I've been doing recently is I take like photocopy paper and draw on it or just drawing paper. And if you put the resin down on your surface first and then put the paper in into the wet resin, it turns the paper transparent. And then it adopts the surface texture of the paper because it kind of absorbs from behind the drawing. I don't know if I'm explaining that very well. But you get a really nice matte surface from that as well. Anyway. And you leave the paper on? 00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:16.900 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Interesting. 00:11:16.980 --> 00:11:42.480 Yeah, so I may all send you a picture if I think of it, but I did these printouts. I went and took a bunch of pictures of alleyways around my place, and I got them printed out on a blueprint printer, which is basically just a large format laser printer, really low quality, but I kind of like how it breaks up the image. And then I put the resin on the board, put these big prints on the board, and then it turns everywhere that's white, it turns basically transparent. It's a trip. 00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:46.100 Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's really cool. 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:52.920 Anyway, do you do any oil in the sketchbooks? Or is that all acrylic? 00:11:53.560 --> 00:12:25.500 No, I do a lot of oil in the sketchbooks. And... I try to do acrylic first and the oil on top so I'm not destroying the paper, but sometimes it'll be just oil. And, you know, the oil will transfer back of the paper onto the paper beside it. I might get a little bit brittle or whatever. I don't care about any of that stuff. People ask me that all the time. I like that the sketchbooks are kind of messy and kind of dirty and they're kind of ripped up and they're super old and, 00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:31.700 so are the sketchbooks mostly for you then or yeah do you yeah they are that's i don't know 00:12:31.700 --> 00:14:05.100 what else i would do with them i mean i've shown them where they've been in magazines and stuff but i mean they're probably of all the things that i've done the most important things to me i think if there was a fire i would make sure that i would grab those first what is that what is that? I don't know. It's like, I don't know. It's like the, I think the, the preciousness of, I mean, these sketchbooks are, they actually started now, I guess they're more probably about 30 years old, 25, 30 years old. And they were originally, I used to take these sketchbooks and I used to, rip out things from magazines that were inspirational or other artists or whatever and I would glue them all in with a glue stick and I would do book after book after this and of course I'd never go back and and look at them so it was more just the process of doing this and then I can't even remember when I started doing this for some reason I started ripping out the all the images that I'd put in there because I thought oh god that's not interesting to me anymore I don't know how I ever liked that artist so I started ripping this stuff out And then what was left was this beautiful bit of glue and some of the ink from the images and in different shapes and lines and stuff. And it was gorgeous. And so I started using the sketchbooks again and adding paint and sort of leaving that stuff to be. To be a part of the image and that's how it all really started and then it just sort of grew from there with different Different medium and but I still do the same thing the same way It's still always not always but there's still often that gluided images that I'll rip out and then start working on it and 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:11.260 So do you think it's inherently more meaningful because there's some history there or you're going back and revisiting? 00:14:11.540 --> 00:15:04.900 Yeah, and I think also, too, another thing is, you know how as an artist, you know when a painting is done and you know how sometimes you're working on a piece and you think it's amazing. And then you go to bed and you wake up the next day and you look at it and you're like, oh, that is really shitty. I can't believe I ever thought that was great. And then you just keep working on it. until it does become great. And it takes a long time. And it's that long time process that really makes the painting great and makes you really love that piece because you put so much of yourself into it. And that's the same with the sketchbooks for me because I – I work, you know, I work at different pages, different times, different books, different times. And I'll just flick through them and find an image. And I'll be like, oh, that needs some more work. And so then I'll work on that. And eventually I'll know when it's done. And I won't work on that one anymore. And I think it's because every single image has been truly worked to the maximum until I know it's as good as I can possibly make it. 00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:13.200 So do you just have a stack of sketchbooks and you'll go back in previous sketchbooks and leave through them until you find something that you that speaks to you or? 00:15:13.400 --> 00:15:49.180 I have about 25 or 30 sketchbooks and some days I'll just sit down and I'll just do basic background collage work or or background acrylic work and then I'll let them all dry and then I'll put them away and then the next day I'll come in and I'll I'll take one of those sketchbooks off the shelf and I'll open it up and I'll have some extra oil paint at the end of my day and so then I'll just start, you know. working with some oil on that and then I'll pick out another sketchbook and I might do that with tan then I just leave them all drying and then the next few days I'll I'll shut them put them away and then just keep on working that way. Sometimes if I'm on vacation I might bring one then I might bring colored pencils or oil sticks and work more on top of that that way. 00:15:49.700 --> 00:16:25.560 So what's so interesting to me about this is that I think more often than not, I think of sketchbooks as, you know, working through ideas or kind of a shorthand for what you might do at a larger scale. And, you know, in my sketchbooks, at least, there are plenty of pages in there that I just, you know, leave behind and... know whatever they're they're awful and you know i don't think about it and i go to the next one but you've got this refining process and you're and you see these as as kind of complete finished pieces in and of themselves that are different than the larger pieces i think i do also have 00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:35.400 sketchbooks like what you're talking about i also do have sketchbooks where i just do sketches mock-ups for big pieces and i do those all the time um and then you know there's crappy pages 00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:09.000 Oftentimes those come out of leftover time at the end of the studio. So it's, you know, I've got leftover pain, I've got leftover time, whatever, I work on those. Which is funny, because they become the most important things, one of the most important things I think that I care about that I make. But, yeah. 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:19.000 So the joy is not in sharing them and displaying them, obviously, there's something else that's more meaningful to you that they exist, bound in a book that you possess. 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:53.380 You know, I'm a big collector, and I've got a gazillion collections of all kinds of things you can think of, and I think maybe part of it is that. I like to have... Whoops, my cat is walking on the computer. Get out of here, free. I think it's almost like a collection of images that I've created. No, I do the same thing with, you know, crocheting things or knitting things. all other kinds of things that I make. I don't know what it is. I like to do things. I used to be a printmaker. I really like to do things in series. I like to have a lot of things. 00:17:54.340 --> 00:17:58.740 Do you still consider yourself a printmaker or are you a painter? 00:17:59.140 --> 00:19:28.140 No, I'm a painter. No, my degree was actually in printmaking, printmaking. and drawing. I didn't paint at all during my undergraduate degree. Why did you switch? Well, I did my undergraduate and then I did a few unrelated art years and then moved to the Cayman Islands to pay off my student loan and then I went to Montreal with my husband I was doing a fellowship there. And then I started to do textiles at Concordia. So then I just studied textiles for a long time, which took me to, after Concordia, I went to a French school, a weaving school. And from there, I got hired somehow in a really weird way to work at Cirque du Soleil in the costume department. And so then I did that for about five years and it wasn't until... The reason why I started painting, to get back to your question, was I was... I worked in the costume department and we hand painted the costumes with dye. And we would hand paint all of the costumes. This is really crazy, but we would do really intricate costumes. And we would learn to actually be able to do... like the costumes are pinned out flat on a table and then you're painting. and we would do these amazing gradations with dye and we would do like fine lines and you'd end up painting with your left hand and your right hand just 'cause it's easier sometimes. And because of that, I realized if I can do these cool gradations with these really basic brushes, what could I do with the paint? So that's when I started painting. I started buying canvases in Montreal and that's when I started painting. 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:33.800 - When did you stop doing printmaking? That printmaking kind of requires a certain amount of equipment and setup, right? 00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:51.060 Yeah, and that basically ended when my degree ended. And it wasn't so, it was, I still did lino cuts and things that I could do at home, but I didn't have a space where I could, that had the proper ventilation, and I didn't have my own press, and I was moving to different places where I didn't have that, so. 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:59.080 And would you say there was a time when you kind of reconciled that you were a painter now or was that just a natural evolution? 00:19:59.820 --> 00:20:18.760 Yeah, it was more of a natural evolution, I would say. Yeah, my whole career has just been putting one foot in front of the other until I, you know, without thinking I didn't have a, I never had like a solid plan saying this is where I want to be, this is how I want to get there and these are the steps I'm going to do. to achieve that goal. It was never like that. It was just, just do the work, just do the work. 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:29.720 Uh, you use a lot of collage. It looks like there's text, there's imagery as well. Is there any, um, process behind that? Or is it just, uh, kind of the things that surround you? 00:20:29.720 --> 00:21:29.240 Um, the reason there isn't, um, everything that I choose for the collage, um, definitely has meaning to me. It might come from my travels. It might be old books that were my dad's who's passed away. I found an old newspaper in my old house in the walls. It was a hundred years old. I use that a lot. I use fabric from Cirque du Soleil that we had from the costume department. You know, it could be old wallpaper. It could be anything, but it always has sort of a history or some sort of emotional meaning to me. So in that sense, yes, it's carefully considered what I'm using. But once I put it into the painting, I sort of get sort of so into the process that I forget that these disparate elements, I'm trying to make them all cohesive. And then I stand back and then somebody comes and, you know, looks at the painting and says, well, this text is about like medicine from 1963. How does that relate to the painting? And then I sort of think, well, I'm It kind of doesn't, and I didn't really think about that. So I try to be a lot more conscious of what goes in there and why, so I can answer those questions. 00:21:29.840 --> 00:21:41.700 So initially, maybe it starts out as maybe an intellectual or emotional type of question, decision of choosing some kind of collage element but then it just turns into more of an aesthetic 00:21:41.700 --> 00:22:04.100 or trying to resolve an image yeah yeah and i'm just a super visual person i'm not a i am not a words person at all so everything that i do is about is really about color and shape and balancing stuff that's that's that's how i would describe what i do color shape and balancing stuff Yeah, balancing those elements. 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:41.300 Sure, sure, sure. But there does seem to be a consistent aesthetic. Do the accumulation, there's a, you know, in a lot of them, there is a strong accumulation of shapes and they're fairly sharp edge geometrical shapes that exist in a fairly... atmospheric space, right, or sense of space. You got to, in a lot of them, there's some kind of division that feels not necessarily like a horizon line, but, you know, a division into two. Do you think in terms of any kind of representation or illusion or is it all, or any meaning behind, 00:22:41.300 --> 00:23:09.200 I don't. I don't. I think, you know, I do hear that sort of landscaping thing a lot. And I'm from Saskatchewan originally, which is the center of Canada, which is all prairie. And it is the land of landscape painters. So I don't know. And I love that landscape so much. I love the flat landscape with a giant sky. And I think that must play into the way I work. But I wouldn't say that it's... super conscious. 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:26.200 - What is the decision making behind the shapes that you choose? I understand that there's a visual calculation that's going on there trying to balance different elements, but is there anything that motivates the choice of, in your composition, the choice of elements that you use? 00:23:26.200 --> 00:24:24.160 - Yeah, I think that's just something that has come over the years. It's like I was saying before, when you just put one step in front of the other, it took a long time for me, I think, to find my actual language. I used to do really, really loose abstract paintings that were kind of ephemeral and curly and they didn't have a lot of geometric at all. And then it sort of segued into different things and then you sort of find the area that... that feels right. And when I started doing the geometric shapes and, and I think the specific shapes I use, cause those are, those are the language of, of, of my art, um, that really kind of stuck. And I, I do try, I, I, I'm really apt to switch styles a lot. So I really try to make sure that that's something that I retain because it's really easy for me to fly off and do something else, start doing happy faces or whatever. 00:24:24.860 --> 00:24:35.900 Nothing wrong with happy faces. Not at all. How would you, how would you describe the mood of your work or the general mood? What do you think? 00:24:35.900 --> 00:25:26.800 You know, I think a lot of people look at them and think happy or theatrical or even circusy or all those kinds of things, which is kind of interesting to me because it's not so much really what I'm thinking about or what they are about, even though I recognize that, you know, bright colors obviously makes people think that. like I'm not influenced by even what's happening in the world or, you know, if I'm in a bad mood, my paintings aren't necessarily going to be dark. They're still going to be bright. I don't know. It's just a, it's, it's kind of like I switch into art mode, into work art mode. And it's just all about, all about the color and what colors need to be there and how can I make that work and, you know, sing. I don't know if I answered your question there. 00:25:26.800 --> 00:26:38.820 I'm not sure exactly what the question was meant to get a response but there was there's something in how you've got this strong accumulation of shapes that feels very like that is this is what I'm getting I'm not saying that that it there's any whatever reason behind it other than just my response but it feels like I'm an introvert so when I when I get too overwhelmed by or when I just get overloaded right I live I've got four daughters we live in a two-bedroom apartment I get kind of overloaded, and sometimes I just need to isolate myself and just regroup, right? I'm sure everybody's that way, right? That's not just interest. But that's the feeling I get with a lot of your paintings is this kind of meditative, you know, the way you create space around these objects lets them breathe, lets them kind of exist free from anxiety. interruption from, from the context that they exist in, if that makes sense. Like they feel, they feel intimate, they feel meditative, internal, like inward pointing. 00:26:40.460 --> 00:27:14.100 Interesting. And I think that's, yeah, that's very much what they are about. And I'm also an introvert and I find that, um, I'm not the kind of person who actually says that much about myself unless, in fact, I won't, unless somebody actually asks me, I don't particularly like talking about myself or even my art, but I find when I'm painting, um, I sort of let that out in a way, but I do, there's, there's always sort of, they're always somewhat contained. I find also. 00:27:14.100 --> 00:27:33.600 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's something very calming to me about that. The fact that you're giving them a space to exist in allows me, I guess, just more permission to really get intrigued and invited into that space in the center. 00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:40.020 I don't know. Even if it's a cacophony of color in the middle there, you still feel that way? 00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:57.860 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like human beings like myself, I feel like a cacophony, right? Like I feel like there's a lot going on that's just a jumble of thoughts and feelings and ideas. And somehow just living is trying to make sense of all of that. 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:17.560 Yeah, and I think in the painting it's like that's the answer right there is the painting it's like it's so hard to because there are so many things and so many elements and so much stuff goes into a painting I find it really hard to describe them sometimes when people ask because they want a concise answer and there really isn't a concise answer 00:28:19.100 --> 00:29:14.940 Right. Well, that's, that's kind of the beautiful thing is I there's so much like in a lot of artists I feel like, well, it's easy to get into patterns right and to kind of switch into auto autopilot. Right. But with yours, I feel like there is. there's an investment in each one. Like each one represents a thought or a state of being that isn't just formulaic. I don't know. That's, that's the worry of all artists. I think to a certain degree that, that make a lot of art that you're worried that you're just kind of churn out the same stuff over and over again. But, I don't know, there's an authenticity to each piece that, and to the breadth of the work. There's a cohesion, there's a consistency, you know, you can definitely tell that it's yours. But each one feels invested in, you know, like, like, thank you for saying that, that is really insightful. 00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:43.600 And that that's exactly the way I feel about them. I think of a lot about those artists that are sort of, doing the same sort of images all the time. And often they're extremely successful because they are doing the same images all the time and the public wants that image. So, you know, there's many different variations of that image. And often those are the galleries want those artists. But I just couldn't do that if I tried. I don't know how people do that. I would just be so bored. 00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:45.040 I feel the same way. 00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:46.020 Yeah. 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:48.460 But tell me about these hanging things. 00:29:49.400 --> 00:30:40.400 Oh, well, those are in process right now. Those are something that I've started. It's going to be part of an installation. I have a show in Seattle in January, I think. And I think they're going to be a part of that show. That is a whole, probably the entire COVID's worth of collecting acorns or rocks or whatever, whatever else it happened to be. Um, And I think I used some like Fimo in there. I used clay. So there's little images I made or little shapes I made with clay. Got some feathers. A lot of my, I collect old crochet and lace. A lot of that is cut up and put in there. I've got some of my textiles I use for knitting in there. And somehow it just became this mashup of 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.040 these little 00:30:42.040 --> 00:31:23.260 precious little bits that I love so much and I just kept painting them and painting them with my leftover paint and I ended up with this big collection of stuff and I knew that I wanted to make some sort of mobile-ish work with them and so that's sort of the beginning and then I've they'll have the holes drilled in them and then I did some on wire you might see a little bit there's some sort of in circular shapes that I've been threading onto wire and those are going to be part of a bigger installation and those little things I love so much. Sometimes you make something and you think, I don't want to sell this ever. I mean, you know, you can't just pile up all the work you've ever made, but sometimes like those little things, I just love looking at them. 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:35.580 Are they meant to be retroscopic? It seems like you're presenting them more as like paintings up on a wall than mobiles that are meant to be walked around. 00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:39.580 I don't know yet. I'm not sure. They could be. 00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:58.200 I like them on the wall though. I think having that wall behind them helps them just like your paintings, right? It's like you're creating the space for these little accumulations to exist. I think if they were just hanging in the middle of the room, there'd be too much visual noise around them. It would be harder to just appreciate them. Yeah, I think you're right. 00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:14.700 Yeah, I think having a white background on them really makes a big difference. And somehow I feel like they do relate to my work, not even just because they're similar colors, but I just, I feel like there is something about them. Maybe it's the stacking of elements with the stacking of shapes in the painting. 00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:19.800 but and tell me again there there's uh there's clay in there there's 00:32:19.800 --> 00:32:42.100 there's embroidery there's yarn there is vintage lace there is acorns there is um i also have feathers and rocks that i'm working with but i don't know if those are in that image um there's fimo that um air that stuff you bake in the oven um air dry clay oh god i gotta 00:32:42.100 --> 00:32:49.640 Got it. Yeah. It's like, oh, what's that other brand that Fimo, there's also Sculpey. Sculpey. Yeah. Yeah. 00:32:49.640 --> 00:33:02.100 It's like that kind of stuff. My kids, when they were young, there was a whole bin of it left over. And one day I was cleaning it up and I'm like, I can't throw this out. Oh, I'll make some more things to go with my installation. 00:33:02.980 --> 00:33:04.660 I love that. So that's how that started. 00:33:05.060 --> 00:33:05.900 Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:05.900 --> 00:33:23.220 I'm trying to, they kind of look, I mean, you've pierced them in the middle, you've strung them on a string, so it's kind of like a necklace or an earring, the way that they hang. But it's also like a totem, you know, like you've got this stack of... Exactly. It is like a totem. Yeah. 00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:33.760 Yeah. But it's also childlike in a way, too, like it's sort of reminiscent of being young. Yeah. - Yeah, so I'm not sure those might get bigger or smaller or shapes, I'm not sure exactly. 00:33:33.760 --> 00:33:46.400 - Oh, bigger, how cool would that be? - Yeah. - That'd be, yeah, I like the natural object, so I wonder what kind of natural object you could find that was big and the acorns were cool. 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.560 - Yeah. Giant boulders. 00:33:49.640 --> 00:34:05.700 What's your favorite? What's the, you like oil, you like linen, you like paper and collage materials. Do you have a favorite for tactile reasons or for smell reasons or any favorite materials? 00:34:06.580 --> 00:34:28.780 I love St. Armand handmade paper. Right. which is out of Quebec. I love that paper. It's a really nice handmade paper that is a beautiful decal, but they also do some of it that's in these really muted shades, which I love. So when I'm doing paperwork, I use that. For acrylic, I really like Nova Color, which is a California company. Do you know Nova? 00:34:28.780 --> 00:34:30.240 Yeah, it's right down the road. Yeah, for sure. 00:34:30.340 --> 00:34:56.320 Oh, okay. And actually on those little compilations that we were just talking about on string, I use nail polish on those a lot. A lot of that is painted. Like there's little bits of driftwood that I got when I was out in BC. And a lot of that is painted with nail polish. One thing I use a lot is these crayons. They're wax crayons. You might know them. They're water-soluble. It's actually professional clown paint. 00:34:56.980 --> 00:35:01.820 I use those a lot. Wait a second. Wait, tell me about this. I'm going to write this down. 00:35:02.040 --> 00:35:16.160 They look like crayons, and they're water-soluble. But they're actually, if you were to dip it in water and paint it on your skin, it's how clowns paint their faces. And I use those a lot. 00:35:16.780 --> 00:35:19.980 But that, if you get water on it, it's going to re-wet and wash off? 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:36.320 Well, it doesn't, though. If you've had it on, like, if I was to do something on my canvas with a... within a day if I went and tried to wash it off, it would wash completely right off. But if I leave it for quite a while, it doesn't seem to. 00:35:36.900 --> 00:35:37.400 Got it. 00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:46.820 Yeah. And I like it. I use them because I absolutely love oil pastels, but you can't fix oil pastels. So these are a really good alternative. 00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:49.380 Oh, that sounds great. 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:50.480 Yeah. 00:35:51.040 --> 00:36:16.640 And when it comes to wax pastels, it kind of actually pisses me off when people use wax pastels because there's such a, or chalk pastels too, both of them. Because they're such an easy way to get the most vibrant, gorgeous color. But it's kind of an unfair advantage because you shouldn't be using them because you can't fix them. And so if it's in a gallery and somebody rubs up against your oil pastel, it's going to come off. So I specifically don't use those for that reason. 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:22.660 Or unless they're behind, you know, you can put them behind glass and that's fine, but. 00:36:22.660 --> 00:36:29.400 - Right, but charcoal or chalk, you feel the same way about it because you can't adequately fix it. 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.800 Yeah, if you do fix it, the color changes. 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:54.300 So what got me into resin was wax I was doing in caustic and loved it love the smell loved how you could re like melt it and then build it back up and carve into it. loved it. But I had the same kind of feeling like, but I don't know if this is going to get left in the sun, or it's gonna over time, get bloom and kind of look. 00:37:18.500 --> 00:37:41.200 among we did a billion different techniques but one of the things we would do is is use encaustic so you you know pour encaustic into the areas that you drill down stuff and and I always felt the same way like what if there's too much sun on this what if it starts I don't know how encaustic artists deal with that but I I'm really really conscious of trying to make sure that things are are going to last 00:37:41.200 --> 00:37:46.200 Anything else as far as materials are concerned? Materials? Yeah. 00:37:46.200 --> 00:38:25.300 There's a gouache that I love called Beam Paints. I don't know if you know them. They're a little Canadian company that creates their own paint with-- I think it's kind of a real eco-conscious kind of company. And they even-- the little paints, they have these wood-- They make these wood sort of pallets that they drip or they glove the paint into that are really beautiful. And then some of them they wax in like a beeswax fabric. And they're just gorgeous, really beautiful paints. I love handmade oil like Williamsburg or Mussini or Michael Harding, all the good stuff. Mm-hmm. 00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:33.900 Are you snobby at all when it comes to materials? Do you have to have certain materials? 00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:40.780 Yeah, I am. I mean, I can be pretty lowbrow too, but yeah, I like nice stuff for sure. 00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:43.340 So Williams, what's your go-to for oil? 00:38:43.700 --> 00:39:01.400 There's no go-to. I generally go by colour. So there's certain brands that I like of certain colours. There's certain colours that I use a lot more of than others. So, you know, I can't use the handmade one. Like, I wouldn't use a Williamsburg white because I use way too much white. 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:07.220 so white you wouldn't use a Williamsburg I wouldn't know I wouldn't 00:39:07.220 --> 00:39:16.060 use a small tube of an expensive brand of white because they use a lot of white so I use the giant men's for Newton ones I have all brands of oil 00:39:16.060 --> 00:39:22.200 paint can you give me a couple examples of specific brands and colors I have to 00:39:22.200 --> 00:39:37.840 in my paint cabinet. But Queen Magenta, I use that all the time. I use a buff. I don't know what brands those are actually. No, there are certain colors that I go back to all the time though. And I will always buy a certain brand. 00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:48.180 A friend of mine close by, he's... What did he tell me about? Delft Blue. I'd never heard of Delft Blue before. 00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:50.800 No, we didn't. D-E-L. 00:39:51.380 --> 00:40:04.280 D-E-L-F-T, Delft Blue? No, never heard of that. I can't remember what brand it was, but I bought a tube of it and I have never used it. that happens too 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:10.880 you gotta have the days where you look through your stuff and go I haven't used this we're only using these colors today make it work 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:20.540 flake white is another one where I bought the tube there's reasons why I want to use it but then I'm kind of scared that it's you know it's lead base and I get worried about not being responsible. 00:40:20.540 --> 00:40:28.440 Yeah, I never use fleekway. Yeah. Do you wear protection on your face when you're doing encaustic? 00:40:30.140 --> 00:40:44.280 Encaustic, no. Are you well-painted? Nope. My studio is pretty tall ceilings and I usually have a fan going, so I don't know, I guess I feel like I've got enough ventilation. 00:40:44.620 --> 00:40:45.120 Yeah. 00:40:45.100 --> 00:40:57.620 maybe that's not wise I don't know I don't know if I I guess I could get used to it but having a having a mask on for long periods of time would drive me nuts yeah it would drive me nuts too 00:40:57.620 --> 00:41:21.460 yeah I do I'm pretty athletic and I do find that well and maybe it's not because of this island know but it's hard to work with all of these you know oils and chemicals and whatever and then go on your hop on your bike and do a really hard ride so do you feel it in your you feel it in your chest when you're breathing like sometimes i do yeah if i'm working too much with certain 00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:26.720 stuff i do yeah see that's that frightens me a little bit i'm sure over the long term 00:41:26.720 --> 00:41:32.180 and there's so many of us right so many of us doing the same thing and Yeah. 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:38.640 You had a show go up recently. Do you want to advertise anything or point, point everybody to, 00:41:39.240 --> 00:41:55.160 well, I have work at Moberg gallery right now in Des Moines. We were just at the Hamptons art fair, but that came down a few weeks ago. I have work at Hawk contemporary right now in Kansas city. I have a show coming up in January and zinc contemporary in Seattle. 00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:56.580 Okay. 00:41:56.100 --> 00:41:58.440 So I think those are the things that I have right now. 00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:00.940 You're busy. That's fantastic. 00:42:00.940 --> 00:42:02.020 Yeah. 00:42:02.020 --> 00:42:05.240 And Instagram is a good place to find you. Do you have a website? 00:42:05.240 --> 00:42:23.500 I do. Elaine's Baffer dot com. I used to be really up to date on that, but, you know, Instagram just takes over everything. So it's most of my recent stuff is on Instagram. So we'll see how long Instagram lasts before and before it explodes. And then who knows what will something will come by. 00:42:23.500 --> 00:44:07.100 My thanks to Elaine for making time for this conversation. I enjoyed it very much. There is something very significant to me as a teacher of art in learning that Elaine's sketchbooks are finished, self-contained works of art that she has no concrete plans to display or sell. They aren't preparatory work and they aren't really intended for or motivated by in any audience other than herself. Over the years, I've had a lot of students who feel they can only claim to be an artist when they've sold something. I can understand this logic, but I think it entirely misses the joy and meaning of taking on the title and worldview of artist. First, make artwork that you love. Collect the colors, textures, subject matter, ideas, and materials that you find powerful. That's when you start being an artist. Letting that be the fuel of your art making, I believe, will lead to art that is more compelling for an audience, and also art that is more fulfilling for you. I was kind of surprised and delighted to find that out about the sketchbooks and makes me love them even more. You can find out more about Elaine at her website, Elaine Spafford.com that spelled a L a Y N E S P A F F O R D.com. Elaine Spafford.com. And she is on Instagram at Elaine underscore Spafford. Images and links are in the show notes at dabble on.com forward slash podcast. Thanks for listening to dabble on. I'm glad you're here next week. or maybe a little more than a week, I will have another conversation for you. So come back. Also rate me on iTunes, subscribe on the website and tell friends and family. 00:44:07.100 --> 00:44:17.440 ♪